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What The War on Terror Is Really About (pg. 9)
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| ronk |
| quote: | Originally posted by Purple
First muslims dont kill to make others muslims, they kill because you are not leaving them alone, you call them evil, you deface Quran, you deface their god...
Muslims never crossed this line, I wonder what would have happened if they publically burned Bible; wiped their asses of it, and publically burnt eficies of Jesus/Mary...
Second Christian crusade is not over; it was never over, its always there, its always been there, guys are pretty much still active in Africa and Asia; and this 'war on terror' is just another crusade.... christians do kill if you are a muslim. |
Purple, this one is for you:
http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20...1050wmv&ak=null |
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| Purple |
I dont hate jews, I am just against Israel government's foreign policy. |
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| hardcore trancer |
| quote: | Originally posted by Purple
I dont hate jews, I am just against Israel government's foreign policy. |
Dont bother trying to explain yourself to them.Either way they will make you look anti-semetic. |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Cool! I thought it would be much less!!!
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It might be that you have more radical opinions than what you actually wrote, but in the movie review I read, I didn't find much to disagree with.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
That suggests there is nothing inherent in the religion that promotes hatred of Jews. |
How about :
| quote: | | The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). |
(Source)
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
My point is, using Israel as a good example, is that all this propaganda the documentary refers to (the anti-Semitic school text books, cartoons, sermons, etc) originates not out of a hatred of Jews, but out of a hatred for what Israel has done to these people which in turn now manifests itself as a hatred against Jewish people.
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So how do you explain the Palestinian-Nazi link of 1939?
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
I don't really understand what you're saying here...?
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What I'm saying is that my impression is that you refuse to accept it, when Islamists state that they believe that their goals are dictated by God, but instead attribute their hatred to more rational reasons (seen with atheist eyes), such as Israel's continued occupation of the West Bank. No matter how clearly it is said, or how often, by the Islamists themselves, you keep dismissing it, as if these people were children and weren't aware of their own motivations. I don't understand *why* you insist on this, but guessed that it could be because you (as a socialist) do not believe in the unjust cause of the poor, the fascism of the poor, the guilt of the poor - call it what you want.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Simply that they cannot (which does not automatically mean that is what they desire) I have seen ample evidence from individuals to suggest some do want to take over the world (unless, of course, it'e merely rhetoric) but I am not convinced this is representative of the major Islamist groups. The reason is their aims are religious as set out in their holy texts. |
But see, you claimed that the desires of several groups were not to take over the world - and as such you *did* make a guess of their intentions - even though you say that (in your opinion) there is not enough evidence to draw any conclusions. So again, it seems like you are hell-bent on explaining away the hatred with your rational reasons, even when no evidence supports this conclusion, and deliberately choose to ignore evidence to the contrary (such as statements from leaders of Islamist groups).
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Let me give you the example of the Jews/Zionists. A political ideology linked to their religion. Their aim was to establish the Jewish state in Israel, as described in their holy texts. They have no desire to take over the world and convert everyone to Judaism - just what was described in their holy texts. What makes you think the equally religions Islamists are any different? |
I've answered this one over and over again. Read up on Hizbu-tahrir, investigate the "Avalon project", listen to Al-queda's latest statement, see how your own country (and the EU, and the US) is being made to bend over backwards to Islamist thinking, notice how Sharia is making headway in countries in South-east Asia, read the damned posters when Islamists "protest" in your street. I - for one - have never ever seen similar expressions from the Zionists. Have you?
Yes, to both groups we non-believers are worthless, but the difference is that Judaism is *not* a converting religion. All it wants is the complete area of Israel, and then we'll have judgment day and all the worhtless people are damned and the Jews are saved. Islam (and Christianity), on the other hand, have phrases in its holy texts which cannot be interpreted in any other way than as encouragement to convert or eradicate non-believers *wherever* they may be found.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
That's a poor attempt to dispute my point. The fact is, Hizballah could take over Lebanon and establish a theocracy - they haven't. |
Well, that's certainly a poor attempt to "argue" my dispute. At least I presented some sort of argument, rather than a non-supported "fact". |
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| BiG-_BoSS |
| quote: | Originally posted by Purple
I dont hate jews, I am just against Israel government's foreign policy. |
Right, I believe that you don't. But this is kind of like hating Americans. Do you hate Americans or do you hate their gov and it's foreign policy? The Americans think you hate them when in reality it's mostly the government. |
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| Blake |
I'm at work so I can't watch the video just yet.
IMO though, The War on Terror is just an excuse for the US to remain at war for as long as is beneficial.
The idea of a 'War on Terror' is something of an oxymoron because one can never actually win a war on terror. Not through fighting anyway. Anyone can become a terrorist at any time so technically, we could be at war for the next hundred years if we wanted to, and still call it 'The War on Terror'. The only true way to fight terror is to address the underlying social issues that create terrorists.
History has shown though, that people prefer taking the easy route. Why address an issue when we can pummel it into the ground or blast it into oblivion right? :rolleyes:
Conservatives have been throwing around the term 'World War 3' a lot recently. Some liberals suggest that the use of the term is merely to distract people from the fact that we failed the War on Terror. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
It might be that you have more radical opinions than what you actually wrote, but in the movie review I read, I didn't find much to disagree with. |
I don't think there was anything to disagree with, my criticism was the motives behind the film and issues I believe to be important to the subject being left out (which ties into their motives)
That's a twisted interpretation of Islam, which all Islamic extremism is, which suggests to me it is the interpretors to blame for creating anti-Semitic views, not the religion itself
| quote: | | So how do you explain the Palestinian-Nazi link of 1939? |
Zionism, and the fight against it (is that not pretty much obvious?)
| quote: | | What I'm saying is that my impression is that you refuse to accept it, when Islamists state that they believe that their goals are dictated by God, but instead attribute their hatred to more rational reasons (seen with atheist eyes), such as Israel's continued occupation of the West Bank. No matter how clearly it is said, or how often, by the Islamists themselves, you keep dismissing it, as if these people were children and weren't aware of their own motivations. I don't understand *why* you insist on this, but guessed that it could be because you (as a socialist) do not believe in the unjust cause of the poor, the fascism of the poor, the guilt of the poor - call it what you want. |
So how do you explain the PLO's hatred of Israel/Jews? (And the reason I said before I don't understand what you mean, and still don't, is when you say "you as a socialist do not believe in the unjust cause of the poor" - please explain)
| quote: | | But see, you claimed that the desires of several groups were not to take over the world - and as such you *did* make a guess of their intentions - even though you say that (in your opinion) there is not enough evidence to draw any conclusions. So again, it seems like you are hell-bent on explaining away the hatred with your rational reasons, even when no evidence supports this conclusion, and deliberately choose to ignore evidence to the contrary (such as statements from leaders of Islamist groups). |
The reason my opinions are as they have been, is because you are "hell-bent" on explaining why New York, Washington, Madrid, London, Bali, etc, etc, were bombed is because the perpetrators were trying to take over the world. I find that idea absured and untrue. I also find it most unhelpful in our efforts to make sure attacks like this do not happen again (if you have the wrong reason why these attacks have taken place, you're not gonna be able to stop them right?). Now I accept that many groups and individuals have the dream of the whole world becoming Islamic under Sharia law, and I shall entertain your belief that this is the ultimate aim of all Islamists for a moment. Consider that that is true - well it is completely irrelevant. The first stage of this Islamist aim would be the reestablishment of the Caliphate (as your Hizbut-Tahrir state). Only then would they go onto conquere the world. Well they will never acheive the first stage of that aim and establish the Caliphate so they will never be in a position to gather enough power to begin their second stage, so it's irrelevant. But does my belief, or your's, have any relevance one way or another to our security? Are we less at risk if we take my view, or are we more at risk if we take your view? I don't think the level of risk would be any different - New York was attacked, as were all the rest, and many more attacks are planned for either the short term goal (my view) or the long term goal (your view) and they need to be dealt with (and the solution is the same whether you are right or I am right)... But I'll ask again, can you honestly hold your hand on your heart and tell me that those attacks were carried out for the specific purpose of taking over those countries?
| quote: | I've answered this one over and over again. Read up on Hizbu-tahrir, investigate the "Avalon project", listen to Al-queda's latest statement, see how your own country (and the EU, and the US) is being made to bend over backwards to Islamist thinking, notice how Sharia is making headway in countries in South-east Asia, read the damned posters when Islamists "protest" in your street. I - for one - have never ever seen similar expressions from the Zionists. Have you?
Yes, to both groups we non-believers are worthless, but the difference is that Judaism is *not* a converting religion. All it wants is the complete area of Israel, and then we'll have judgment day and all the worhtless people are damned and the Jews are saved. Islam (and Christianity), on the other hand, have phrases in its holy texts which cannot be interpreted in any other way than as encouragement to convert or eradicate non-believers *wherever* they may be found. |
So the Chritians are as much of a threat to global domination as are the Muslims? It's just that the Christians are currently having a hell of a lot more success (and support) in their quest than the Muslims. But that's just me being pedantic and awkward. My point was the Zionists wanted a specific piece of land for exclusively practice their beliefs in (as promised by God) and the Islamists want their specific piece of land to exclusively practice their beliefs in (as promised by God). But you are quite right in your comments about Islam being a converting religion and if they got their way and established the Caliphate they will attempt to convert, but it still would not be feasible to do this by force (they would not only be unsuccessful, they would probably lose thir new Caliphate as well) it would be more likely (and also alluded to in the groups you mention) to do it the Saudi/Wahabbist way by a PR method through Madrasses etc (again, my opinion, I expect you to disagree)
| quote: | | Well, that's certainly a poor attempt to "argue" my dispute. At least I presented some sort of argument, rather than a non-supported "fact". |
No you offered a daft response that suggested you were clutching at straws trying to find any old excuse as to why Hizballah have not, and plan not to, take over Lebanon and establish a state governed by Sharia law. I was merely pointing that out. |
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| ronk |
| quote: | Originally posted by Purple
I dont hate jews, I am just against Israel government's foreign policy. |
wtf does that fact has to do with the video I posted?
here, I'll make it easier for you, I'll quote some of the text:
| quote: | The Prophet of Islam said: "I was ordered to fight the people until they believe in Allah and his Messenger."
When the Muslims divided the people into Muslims and non-Muslims, and called to fight the others until they believe in what they themselves believe, they started this clash [between the West and Islam], and began this war. In order to stop this war, they must reexamine their Islamic books and curricula, which are full of calls for takfir and fighting the infidels. |
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| Haunted |
most people think that islam and judaism are essentially the same thing, but they're not. islam is a very offensive religion, judaism is a very defensive religion. muslims are essentially supposed to spread the word of muhammid and if people don't listen, kill them. yeah that sounds a bit like Christianity, but in our western world religion isn't that prevalent, not like how it is in the middle east. we are beginning the seperation of church and state, and there are many non religous people living in America.. i seriously dont know anyone my age who is religious.
but in the middle east,especially Iran, its a religious dictatorship where people are brainwashed like crazy to believe in this ideals.
don't you understand this is a battle between modernity and people still living in the crusades
time and time again, people have stated that Israel just wants to be left alone. Israel doesn't care what these muslims do as long as Israel is left alone.. but the muslims want Israel eradicated, they have stated this time and time again, and also all Jews.. .and all non-Muslims for that matter.
idiots like hardcore and purple wish for them to win, imagine if they do. israel is destroyed, what next? they will move toward the west, and they will make no hesitation to kill any of you.
you stupid liberals don't understand the truth when its right infront of your face. all you care about is choosing the opposite side and OmG lETS HaVe PEACE! they killed civilians! totally ignoring the fact that these radicals specifically TARGET civilians
but logic doesn't work with any of you, you're just going to come back with a personal attack, or some stupid claim about Israel not belonging there in the first place. its pointless to argue |
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| ronk |
selected Kuran quotes:
"The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause." Qur'an:9:88
"Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war." Qur'an:9:5
"Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah." Qur'an:8:39
"Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you." Qur'an:9:123
"I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle." Qur'an:8:12
more: http://www.prophetofdoom.net/quotes.aspx?g=405&i=4501 |
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| George Smiley |
| Are "people of the book" considered none-believers? (Genuine question) |
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| Purple |
I know what you guys are talking about, I have witnessed them firsthand in Kashmir; how some of them take oaths to kill Hindus and stuff before being recruited..
| quote: | Originally posted by ronk
selected Kuran quotes:
"The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause." Qur'an:9:88
"Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war." Qur'an:9:5
"Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah." Qur'an:8:39
"Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you." Qur'an:9:123
"I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle." Qur'an:8:12
more: http://www.prophetofdoom.net/quotes.aspx?g=405&i=4501 |
Can anyone with Koran confirm/crosscheck this? I hope this is not just another conspiracy theories floating on internet.. |
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