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EQing main trance lead (pg. 3)
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| wayfinder |
| quote: | Originally posted by mysticalninja
If you compress them together you will get much more dynamics between them. |
What do you mean with that? Dynamics is something that describes a relationship between different times in a song, not between different elements at one time. |
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| mysticalninja |
| quote: | | Dynamics is something that describes a relationship between different times in a song, not between different elements at one time. |
Read Digi-Nuts post for the correct meaning of dynamics in music.
| quote: | | even if you think that having some instruments loud and other instruments soft really constitutes a "dynamic range" (which it doesn't), |
That's not what I think, what I'm saying is what if you want to have a delay pluck lead and a pad, you don't want the pad to be lower in volume, but you still want the lead to stand out when it hits, but you don't want the pad to duck noticably. You compress them, the pad will duck in just enough volume to make the lead stand out, but the effect will be transparent enough that you don't notice the pad duck unless your really looking for it.
| quote: | | it's absolutely retarded to use a compressor for that instead of just adjusting the levels. |
In your humble opinion. =)
Compression is much more important to trance music than you think my friend. EOD. |
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| pixxxan |
ok here goes my opinion.
theres no general rule about this.
But from what i gotten from my mixing experience is to use the EQ in a carefull but effective manner (what to cut or boost will come to ur ears, assuming u have a corrects monitoring setup, neccesaary) . Also the use of volume and panning automation can and will give amzing results. Compression for leads!:? i dont find it necessesary and can even ruin ur lead dynamics if misused. Again to me Eq and automation (volume and panning) is essential for making ur leads sound just in the spot!
:disbelief |
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| mysticalninja |
| quote: | | Compression for leads!:? i dont find it necessesary and can even ruin ur lead dynamics if misused. |
Experiment! Compression on leads is how you get that HUGE reverb/delay but not have it drown out the sound. |
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| RivalMan |
| quote: | Originally posted by mysticalninja
That's not what I think, what I'm saying is what if you want to have a delay pluck lead and a pad, you don't want the pad to be lower in volume, but you still want the lead to stand out when it hits, but you don't want the pad to duck noticably. You compress them, the pad will duck in just enough volume to make the lead stand out, but the effect will be transparent enough that you don't notice the pad duck unless your really looking for it.
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Well, maybe, but imho it would often be better to do this with EQ on the pad (and maybe a little on the lead and on the lead delay as well). I would guess that your approach holds the risk of making the sound too "loud" in the sense that the listener will get tired of listening to it - even when listening on low level (talking about perceived loudness - not actual).
In a sense you're using the compressor here as a way of "glueing" two seperate tracks together. A little "glue" is not always a bad thing, but often I find that it really isn't necessary once you've learned how to EQ the two tracks so that they "melt" together seamlessly. And I find that the result often is more pleasing that way than when you do it with a compressor (even when you use a really good outboard comp like the UA 1176).
So to solve the "problem" you described here, my first attempt would be to EQ the two tracks and delay seperately (that is 3 EQs in total). My second attempt would be to place a sidechained compressor on the pad triggered by the lead. My third attempt would be your suggestion. My fourth attempt would be a combination of two or three of these approaches.
| quote: | Originally posted by mysticalninja
Experiment! Compression on leads is how you get that HUGE reverb/delay but not have it drown out the sound. |
I think that might be the "poor mans solution" to achieving that effect - or maybe just the lazy way to do it :tongue2 . The classic trick used by engineers for years and years is to route the original track to a delay effect (or reverb) by using send (rather than insert) and then placing a sidechained compressor (triggered by the original track) on the send fx channel (as an insert post the delay/reverb effect). This way you'll have so much more control on how much you want the delay/reverb to "stay away" (duck) when the original track is playing. And you will also avoid that the reverbs/delays get amplified too much when the original track is not playing - something that might cause the delays to be indistinguible to the dry sound, which is likely the case when using reverb/delay as an insert on a track and then just placing one compressor on the track after the reverb/delay unit.
But ok, obviously you can do it like that, but imho it's more of an effect (sometimes usefull) than the proper way to deal with this...
Don't really know if this contradicts what you're saying. Just wanted to add my two cents.
Regards |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by mavve
however you calling a track with compresors flat just sounds stupid. |
If you read it again you'll see that's not what I said. I said that compression flattens a sound, which is literally and indisputably true. That's not the same as saying that any track with compression is flat. However, it is completely ridiculous to suggest that something which sounds flat might stand to benefit from compression. That is precisely the myth I tried to dispel in my thread about compression a few weeks ago.
| quote: | Originally posted by mysticalninja
If you compress them together you will get much more dynamics between them. |
What the HELL are you talking about? Do you even have a clue? Compressing two sounds together does NOT add dynamics, it reduces them! Even if it's a ducking effect, you're still reducing the dynamics.
On an irrelevent side note, I think it's funny that you're still going off disparaging everybody else's advice and everybody else's tracks while posting absolutely nothing of your own worthy of mention. Why are you still here? To make people think you contribute while all the while just ripping off everybody else's ideas and trying to get free advice (not to mention free software)? You're not fooling anybody.
There are a lot of people on this forum who I'd take advice and/or criticism from on my tracks - you ain't one of 'em, bub. |
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| mysticalninja |
| quote: | Originally posted by RivalMan
Well, maybe, but imho it would often be better to do this with EQ on the pad (and maybe a little on the lead and on the lead delay as well). I would guess that your approach holds the risk of making the sound too "loud" in the sense that the listener will get tired of listening to it - even when listening on low level (talking about perceived loudness - not actual).
In a sense you're using the compressor here as a way of "glueing" two seperate tracks together. A little "glue" is not always a bad thing, but often I find that it really isn't necessary once you've learned how to EQ the two tracks so that they "melt" together seamlessly. And I find that the result often is more pleasing that way than when you do it with a compressor (even when you use a really good outboard comp like the UA 1176).
So to solve the "problem" you described here, my first attempt would be to EQ the two tracks and delay seperately (that is 3 EQs in total). My second attempt would be to place a sidechained compressor on the pad triggered by the lead. My third attempt would be your suggestion. My fourth attempt would be a combination of two or three of these approaches.
I think that might be the "poor mans solution" to achieving that effect - or maybe just the lazy way to do it :tongue2 . The classic trick used by engineers for years and years is to route the original track to a delay effect (or reverb) by using send (rather than insert) and then placing a sidechained compressor (triggered by the original track) on the send fx channel (as an insert post the delay/reverb effect). This way you'll have so much more control on how much you want the delay/reverb to "stay away" (duck) when the original track is playing. And you will also avoid that the reverbs/delays get amplified too much when the original track is not playing - something that might cause the delays to be indistinguible to the dry sound, which is likely the case when using reverb/delay as an insert on a track and then just placing one compressor on the track after the reverb/delay unit.
But ok, obviously you can do it like that, but imho it's more of an effect (sometimes usefull) than the proper way to deal with this...
Don't really know if this contradicts what you're saying. Just wanted to add my two cents.
Regards |
You could do it with EQ, and in most cases you would do it with EQ, but EQing isn't an alternitive for what i'm talking about, you might want them to fit together without weakening the sound. (cutting out room with EQ) compressing them together gives it a more dynamic sound, lets them take turns being dominate. You could use volume automation as an alternitive for this, but not EQ.
Same with EQing the delay, I do that as well as compressing them together, but its not the same by any means.
Using sidechain for ducking delay/reverb is ok, I tried it a few times.. but usually its too severe and not naturual sounding enough.
Diginut, You've obviously done way too much reading of compression and not had enough hands on experience. If I wanted i'd make a demo of an absolutely flat saw with no dynamics at all, and show you how compressing it with another sound will add dynamics, but I won't waste my time. Someday you'll understand how to actually use compression, and your tracks suddenly won't be so lifeless.
E O Mother ing D. |
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| Lunar Phase 7 |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Which proves that you obviously have no clue what you're talking about. Compression makes hats and kicks and basses sound flatter (and incidentally, there's plenty of compression on it; you can't hear it, which is good, because compression is supposed to be a transparent effect).
Incidentally, your comment in the other thread about professionals wanting to steal your melodies was classic. Keep up the entertainment for us, please! |
Listen to this guy people.
He knows his . |
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| wayfinder |
| quote: | Originally posted by mysticalninja
Read Digi-Nuts post for the correct meaning of dynamics in music.
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1) Don't patronize me
2) Read it yourself, I was paraphrasing him
3) You're still wrong, now matter how verbose you become. I know exactly where you're coming from, but you're forgetting that during the times when one of the sounds get lowered the other one is more powerful, thereby flattening, as in compressing, the combined sound. Is that understandable to you? |
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| Krispy Kreme |
Compressor does the exact opposite , NOT adding more dynamics.
If you want to add dynamics, that is an expander (1:1 ratio or less)
Compressor just brings up the lows and brings down the highs a bit so there is a more "even" range. |
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| mysticalninja |
| quote: | Originally posted by wayfinder
Dynamics is something that describes a relationship between different times in a song |
False. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamics_%28music%29
However what we are talking about is Dynamic Range. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range
If you have a bass that has the same velocity on all notes, it practically has no dynamic range. If you have amp and filter env sustain full, it literally has no dynamic range. It's either playing at said volume, or it's not playing. Compress this with a loud bassdrum, and now it has more dynamic range. Even if it's only ducking it alittle to make room for the BD, the volume of the bass now fluxes more. You guys understand? Compression can add movement. Sure, you could do that with velocity, but it wouldn't be as smooth. Sure you could step it up a notch and automate volume, but IMO it won't come out as tight and warm as a compressor. |
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| wayfinder |
| You're so convinced of yourself that you think you're dealing me a blow even when you're making my point. Well, live on in oblivion :) |
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