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Philosophy Thread: Socratic Virtue Theory! (pg. 2)
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| RJT |
| quote: | Originally posted by lücid
RJT, i love listening to you ramble on about philosophy, but i'm too dumb to match wits in conversation with you... :sadgreen: |
Awwww.... Don't worry about it, I'm not really looking for any "right" answer, I don't think there is one, and if 3000 years of philosophers can't figure it out, I'd hardly expect c0r to! :p
I just want to see what people have to say on it... Different perspectives help soooooo much in phil. courses - It's definitely the only way I figure out how to not sound like an idiot some of the time... ;) |
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| RJT |
| lol... I don't need you guys to cite references or anything - Just tell me what you think about the questions I asked! :) |
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| Ivand |
| but arent we sure that, lets say, humility, is a virtue too? |
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| Moral Hazard |
Something to consider since we are talking about plato here is that when he refers to knowledge he is refering to an understanding of the ideal rather then the perception. In the platonic sense knowledge is the understanding of the object truth. Continuing with this truth is the only virtue. I would argue that knowledge of object truth is beyond our ability as our perception will always cloud our logic, therefore humans cannot have virtue.
I reject your question regarding Hitler as nonsensical, evil is a question of morality and morality is unrelated to knowledge.
Given my position that humans are incapable of understanding object truth and therefore incapable of virtue I must conclude there is no such thing as a knowledgeable person (in the platonic concept of knowledge).
All events are, in fact, lacking in knowledge therefore without virtue if one accepts that knowledge is the only virtue.
In as much as knowledge is the understanding of an object truth and object truths have no moral connotation knowledge is neither "good" nor "bad" (if you accept such things even exist). |
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| RJT |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ivand
but arent we sure that, lets say, humility, is a virtue too? |
I don't think that we're "sure" of that, but it could be.
I think virtues, in the sense that we know them in the modern world, are subjective. What Socrates was posturing was perhaps that this single, all encompassing virtue leads to all other "good" in the world.
Again though, this is all open to interpretation. The Romans had I believe 40 virtues, different Greeks held different things as virtuous, so this is clearly not the end all, be all theory - But interesting to me no less. |
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| RJT |
| Craig - I have a lot to say in response to your post, but have a Foreign Policy course right now. I'll get back to you in an hour - But I really like your overview of Platonic philosophy. |
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| Slylee |
| quote: | Originally posted by RJT
- Was someone like Hitler simply ignorant, and this ignorance led to his perceived evil? |
yes
| quote: | | - Are knowledgeable people always what we would consider virtuous? |
no
| quote: | | - What is knowledge, how do we define it? |
familiarity of facts and/or truths about a certain subject.
| quote: | | What about ignorance? |
thinking you are familiar with a truth and/or fact, when really you aren't.
| quote: | | - And can we ever have complete knowledge? |
complete knowledge of what? everything? or about certain topics?
| quote: | | Can we remove all ignorance? |
in general? no.
| quote: |
And more broadly...
- Can we describe all events lacking in virtue as lacking in knowledge? |
no
| quote: | | - Does knowledge always = good? |
no
*raises hand* TEACHER! i'm done with my work, can i go to recess now?
:toothless |
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| Floorfiller |
here's my own thought on what you're bringing up...
| quote: | | Originally posted by RJT |
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Knowledge is virtue
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i take this to mean that seeking knowledge is a pursuit worth engaging in. it betters you as a person.
i take this to mean that virtue is the primary goal of life. to be virtuous.
Therefore the pursuit of knowledge is one of life's most important endeavours. to better ourselves and our lives we must seek out knowledge and understanding.
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- Was someone like Hitler simply ignorant, and this ignorance led to his perceived evil? |
i would say that someone like hitler was not seeking knowledge, but instead power and because of that he wasn't virtuous.
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- Are knowledgeable people always what we would consider virtuous?
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i would say that knowledgable people are more capable of making virtuous decisions than those without knowledge. whether or not they choose to use that knowledge to make virtuous decisions is another thing (i.e. hitler).
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- What is knowledge, how do we define it? What about ignorance?
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knowledge is the ability to rationalize and understand. ignorance is the opposite; the inability to understand or a lack of understanding.
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And can we ever have complete knowledge? Can we remove all ignorance? |
i think it's impossible to know everything. some religions might say the god/s are all knowing, but i think ignorance is believing that. even the gods make mistakes and weren't able to foresee the consequences and then are not all knowing.
i don't think ignorance is necessarily a bad thing...it's just a means of describing a lack of knowledge. one might be knowledgeble in many things, but still ignorant to others. there is nothing inherently wrong with that, but as long as the pursuit to gain understanding of those things we don't have knowledge of continues we are living a virtuous existence.
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- Can we describe all events lacking in virtue as lacking in knowledge? |
i don't think we can. knowledge is seperate from morality. knowledge might be a virtuous pursuit, but having knowledge does not garauntee virtuous behavior. if we can say that unvirtuous actions lack knowledge it would probably be the inability to foresee the consequences of those actions. if they are forseeable, then it would be rational not to engage in them to begin with.
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- Does knowledge always = good?
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you could make a lot of arguments for or against this. like was nuclear technology a good thing. i think it's definitely possible to abuse knowledge, but that the spirit behind learning and the inquisitive mind is generally a good thing. |
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| Ygrene |
| quote: | Originally posted by RJT
- Was someone like Hitler simply ignorant, and this ignorance led to his perceived evil?
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No, I don't think he was ignorant.
| quote: | Originally posted by RJT
- Are knowledgeable people always what we would consider virtuous?
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No. I think Hitler would be a case in point.
| quote: | Originally posted by RJT
- What is knowledge, how do we define it? What about ignorance? - And can we ever have complete knowledge? Can we remove all ignorance?
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I think knowledge is the recollection of information. Ignorance could be the absence of it. Complete knowledge: No. Remove ignorance: No.
| quote: | Originally posted by RJT
And more broadly...
- Can we describe all events lacking in virtue as lacking in knowledge?
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No.
| quote: | Originally posted by RJT
- Does knowledge always = good?
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No. |
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| Psy-T |
without yet having read the replies
| quote: | Originally posted by RJT
Taken from the Platonic dialogue Protagerus, upon first interpretation it would seem that one could infer:
- Knowledge is a virtue
- There is only one virtue
- Therefore, knowledge is the only true virtue.
Now, with this in mind, consider the implications.
- Was someone like Hitler simply ignorant, and this ignorance led to his perceived evil? |
what evil? you have to deduce a lot more from the former deductions to reach the conclusion that what hitler did was evil when the only virtue is knowledge.
| quote: | Originally posted by RJT
- Are knowledgeable people always what we would consider virtuous? |
according to your deductions above, yes.
| quote: | Originally posted by RJT
- What is knowledge, how do we define it? What about ignorance? |
according to dictionary.com "acquaintance with facts, truths, or principles", ignorance is by definition the lack of knowledge
| quote: | Originally posted by RJT
- And can we ever have complete knowledge? Can we remove all ignorance? |
we can not currently be acquaintant with all facts, truths and principles, so no.
| quote: | Originally posted by RJT
And more broadly...
- Can we describe all events lacking in virtue as lacking in knowledge?
- Does knowledge always = good? |
by the deductions above, obviously - yes. |
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| Omega_M |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Something to consider since we are talking about plato here is that when he refers to knowledge he is refering to an understanding of the ideal rather then the perception. In the platonic sense knowledge is the understanding of the object truth. Continuing with this truth is the only virtue. I would argue that knowledge of object truth is beyond our ability as our perception will always cloud our logic, therefore humans cannot have virtue.
I reject your question regarding Hitler as nonsensical, evil is a question of morality and morality is unrelated to knowledge.
Given my position that humans are incapable of understanding object truth and therefore incapable of virtue I must conclude there is no such thing as a knowledgeable person (in the platonic concept of knowledge).
All events are, in fact, lacking in knowledge therefore without virtue if one accepts that knowledge is the only virtue.
In as much as knowledge is the understanding of an object truth and object truths have no moral connotation knowledge is neither "good" nor "bad" (if you accept such things even exist). |
what does Object Truth mean ?
I don't get the difference between understanding and Perception. Isn't understanding actually perceiving something mentally ? Or do you make a distinction between mental perception and perception through senses. |
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| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Something to consider since we are talking about plato here is that when he refers to knowledge he is refering to an understanding of the ideal rather then the perception. In the platonic sense knowledge is the understanding of the object truth. Continuing with this truth is the only virtue. I would argue that knowledge of object truth is beyond our ability as our perception will always cloud our logic, therefore humans cannot have virtue. |
what is the "object truth"? |
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