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Russia is at it again (pg. 7)
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
no she doesn't. tathi's feeding you a bunch of anti-war propaganda.
that highway doesn't cost billions of dollars. no highway does. we put up $80 million Japan put up $50 million and the Saudis put up $50 million. it's up to Afghans who builds it.
don't listen to her dude.
http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/a...oads/index.html |
tHANKS! I'll take your word for it, this makes even more sense, I always thought it was cheaper to pay Afghanis than Turks from abroad ;-) |
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| star-traveller |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
We have a huge alcohol and drug problem in Russia. We have a huge problem with corrupt officials, ignorant bureaucrats like Putin, mafia.
Over 50,000 Russians drink themselves to death every year. 30,000 Russians die from car accidents every year. The population goes down 700,000 every year - and that was slowed down by immigration from CIS. I've never TRIED alcohol, cigarettes, drugs or any other bull EVER. I guess you can say I educated myself well ;-)
Russians are not crazy. They're depressed, stressed out by very negative changes - from comfortable stable Soviet life, to poverty, himuliation and misery of the democracy. So many resort to drugs, alcohol, pills, suicide, murder, theft ... I've seen it all, I saw how people lost it all in days. I lost very good friends to murder, suicide, drugs, mafia ... I have enough ed-up moments stuck in the back of my mind. I kept my cool though ...
Now the government has lots of money, they have billions of dollars saved up, thanks to the government ownership of oil and gas industry (smart move!, oh wait, but WHY NOT SPEND THAT MONEY PROPERLY???). But they haven't spent much of it on the things that need to be done around the country, like infrastructure, pay doctors/teachers more, upgrade technology, devise smarter economic plans, root out corruption, etc.
Putin has many restrictions, from the West, from mafia, from his inner party. I dont see a positive change happening in Russia quickly, it will take long time because of corruption and mafia and western pressure to do things their way.
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You've said:
"from comfortable stable Soviet life, to poverty, himuliation and misery of the democracy."
I cannot say that the Soviet life was comfortable at all. I was quite young back than I guess as you are. But I still remember few things about living that time. People were queuing in stores to buy meat!!! They didn't use cash at all, goverment provided them some sort of special vouchers to buy things. All the kids in your neigbour were so excited when one of our parents brought back home chewing gums and snickers bars from his business trip to Moscow.
It was terrible time. People were living in some sort of castle without any windows to look outside. Everything I knew about the West was from the movies!! I must say it was rather miserable life than comfortable one.
People likes hailing that time partly because of the strong goverment and local authorities. But in reality people life were just circumscribed by the Soviet system, that's why they didn't take any bribes or did anything like that (at least most of them). A lot of things were just forbiden, like to run a private business.
So imagine we were living in such conditions. And than once at a time everything has changed. Compare it with learning how to swim. Your teacher just through you in the bath full of water and you barely can hold on the surface. Exactly that thing what happened in Russia at that time. At once people were allowed to do almost everything. The goverment collapsed. The most important institutions left without funding. Crimes, bribes all that began to sprout. Chechen war was a big factory to smugle money.
It's not a problem of democracy that people are living in "poverty, himuliation and misery". It's all about people themself. US has to learn 200 years how to build the democarcy before it started to work.
Putin is trying to change the Russia. He tries to seize the control of the federal goverment and the most important the goverment in regions. I don't believe he has any restrictions at all. But you should understand he is not an almight Bruce or whatever. He cannot rule the whole country alone. I think he believes in the democracy, he believes that it's the only form of goverment the Russia will rise with. But with the democracy you should trust and rely on the people you are working with. And that is the most important problem. He needs to find the people who CAN actually work on the better of NATION but not only themself.
And it's not so easy to do in Russia. There are not so many people who changed their way of thinking. Most of them are still starving for money and power. They need time.
They have a lot of money at the moment. But its only increases their responsibility. They cannot just invest it, because it will boost the inflation. And the Russia economy still heavily relies on the natural resources. They don't want a repeat of 1998. |
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| Magnetonium |
In the latter years of the communism's heydays, the inner cicles of the communist party were working hard to undermine Gorbachev. You probably never heard about how average citizens found stockpiles of rotting food disposed in the forests. The party was working hard to stop perestroyka. They actually attempted the putch later as a last attack on the reforms.
But pretty much everyone had jobs, security, food (well, for some part), there was little or no drugs on the streets, no AIDS, low crime. People demanded freedom.
In 1991, people got their freedom, but lost pretty much everything else. Overnight, many Russians' savings disappeared due to inflation and currency devaluation. And so on ...
If communists were bad, what the bureaucrats did in early-mid 1990s was much worse. They sold off the entire country for literally pennies to small businessmen like Abramovich, Berezovskiy, Gusinskiy as part of the world's BIGGEST and most APPALING privatization program. While rich got richer, the poor got poorer. Millions of pensioners and farmers, normal folks were decimated. Alcohol, drugs, AIDS, unemployment exploded. Organized crime took in the vaccum of power. The government could care less about the people, Yeltsin drank more than worked - at times his own daughter signed the laws!!!
And so on ...
There's a reason why you and me left Russia in 1990s, my friend. If democratic Russia was so good, why did millions of Russia emigrate to the West since 1991? Why did over 500 BILLION dollars in capital leave Russia? |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by star-traveller
It's not a problem of democracy that people are living in "poverty, himuliation and misery". It's all about people themself. US has to learn 200 years how to build the democarcy before it started to work.
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Whoa, whoa, wait a minute. USA was WAY MORE DEMOCRATIC back then - just look at the Consitution and see today;s laws like Patriot Act that laugh and spit on people's freedoms - just an example. You got it wrong here, the American democracy is sliding backwards now. They learned democracy on day one, 1776. Since the dawn of the 20th century, since Americans seized the Hawaii islands in a coup, their democracy has been slip-sliding away.
But thats a different topic. |
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| tathi |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
no she doesn't. tathi's feeding you a bunch of anti-war propaganda.
that highway doesn't cost billions of dollars. no highway does. we put up $80 million Japan put up $50 million and the Saudis put up $50 million. it's up to Afghans who builds it.
don't listen to her dude.
http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/a...oads/index.html |
You're right about the price of the highway (it's cost $231 million so far) i got my numbers mucked up because i didn't double check the report i saw on TV a few weeks ago with an internet source and my memory is dodgy (i mistakenly confused the hundred million dollar highway with the fact that billions have been lost through war profiteering) What is true is the disillusionment on the Afghani street towards US and Nato promises of a better life for them, they are angry that only 2000 Afghanis were employed along with an Indian firm and three Turkish firms to build a 230million dollar highway. Its gotten to the point where many would prefer to see the Taliban back in power, not because they believe in their fundamentalist doctrine but because they could at least feed their families under that brutal regime.
The US are taking a step in the right direction by bringing in a bill to prevent billions of dollars from lining the pockets of corrupt corporations and officials through the "War Profiteering Prevention Act of 2006.” http://leahy.senate.gov/press/200603/030206d.html
| quote: | Billions appropriated for the continuing war efforts and for reconstruction are unaccounted for, and fraud has been rampant. The recent report of the special inspector general confirms that U.S. taxpayer funds appropriated for reconstruction have been lost and diverted.
There are, of course, anti-fraud laws to protect against waste of tax dollars at home. But none expressly prohibits war profiteering, and none expressly confers jurisdiction for fraud overseas. This bill would criminalize "war profiteering" -- overcharging taxpayers in order to defraud and to profit excessively from a war, military action, or reconstruction efforts. It would prohibit any fraud against the United States involving a contract for the provision of goods or services in connection with a war, military action, or for relief or reconstruction activities. This new crime would be a felony, subject to criminal penalties of up to 20 years in prison and fines of up to $1 million or twice the illegal gross profits of the crime. |
ps. I was for war in Afghanistan because of its legitimate casus belli. Iraq on the other hand is a completely different matter... |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
tHANKS! I'll take your word for it, this makes even more sense, I always thought it was cheaper to pay Afghanis than Turks from abroad ;-) |
Hey! tathi's a bad ass who's on top of his game, especially when it comes to an understanding of political issues :p. |
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| star-traveller |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
In the latter years of the communism's heydays, the inner cicles of the communist party were working hard to undermine Gorbachev. You probably never heard about how average citizens found stockpiles of rotting food disposed in the forests. The party was working hard to stop perestroyka. They actually attempted the putch later as a last attack on the reforms.
But pretty much everyone had jobs, security, food (well, for some part), there was little or no drugs on the streets, no AIDS, low crime. People demanded freedom.
In 1991, people got their freedom, but lost pretty much everything else. Overnight, many Russians' savings disappeared due to inflation and currency devaluation. And so on ...
If communists were bad, what the bureaucrats did in early-mid 1990s was much worse. They sold off the entire country for literally pennies to small businessmen like Abramovich, Berezovskiy, Gusinskiy as part of the world's BIGGEST and most APPALING privatization program. While rich got richer, the poor got poorer. Millions of pensioners and farmers, normal folks were decimated. Alcohol, drugs, AIDS, unemployment exploded. Organized crime took in the vaccum of power. The government could care less about the people, Yeltsin drank more than worked - at times his own daughter signed the laws!!!
And so on ...
There's a reason why you and me left Russia in 1990s, my friend. If democratic Russia was so good, why did millions of Russia emigrate to the West since 1991? Why did over 500 BILLION dollars in capital leave Russia? |
Don't be so blind. That was a fake security. The country was living in a huge debt. Farmers were deciminated only because the whole argricultural industry was fully sponsored by the goverment. They didn't know how to do business and be profitable at all, because they were forbiden doing this.
It is funny you mentioned Alchohol again. Don't you know that it was a problem #1 in the USSR ? Most of the people of that time were too reluctant to do anything. And why they should ? When they can be sure that the goverment supports their average way of life. There was no competition AT ALL in any industry or place.
In US if you are working hard you can be rewared by a getting bonus and similiar things like this. But there was nothing like this in Russia at that time. Worker's class was just a huge black hole.
But I'm not suprised at all. It's the typical trait in the Russian character. When they don't feel any threat or danger from outside they won't do anything at all.
I just want to conclude by saying that Russia is emerging right now, and it's not the same as it was during the Soviet time. But that doesn't mean that it's worse. |
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| star-traveller |
| quote: | Originally posted by tathi
ps. I was for war in Afghanistan because of its legitimate casus belli. Iraq on the other hand is a completely different matter... |
That was a pathetic war. The war that the US has leaded against the CIA trained fighters. Russia is the one who should've been wipe out all those bastards when it had a chance. But thanks to the US it didn't happen. |
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| metalgearsolid |
| quote: | Originally posted by star-traveller
That was a pathetic war. The war that the US has leaded against the CIA trained fighters. Russia is the one who should've been wipe out all those bastards when it has a chance. But thanks to the US it didn't happen. |
The Russians would have done it better too, because they would have killed all the population. Not like Americans who try to remain as civil as possible. |
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| star-traveller |
| Russians, Americans whatever. As long as their actions do not harm their own population and the rest of the civilized world keep quiet they don't care whom to kill. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by star-traveller
Don't be so blind. That was a fake security. The country was living in a huge debt. Farmers were deciminated only because the whole argricultural industry was fully sponsored by the goverment. They didn't know how to do business and be profitable at all, because they were forbiden doing this.
It is funny you mentioned Alchohol again. Don't you know that it was a problem #1 in the USSR ? Most of the people of that time were too reluctant to do anything. And why they should ? When they can be sure that the goverment supports their average way of life. There was no competition AT ALL in any industry or place.
In US if you are working hard you can be rewared by a getting bonus and similiar things like this. But there was nothing like this in Russia at that time. Worker's class was just a huge black hole.
But I'm not suprised at all. It's the typical trait in the Russian character. When they don't feel any threat or danger from outside they won't do anything at all.
I just want to conclude by saying that Russia is emerging right now, and it's not the same as it was during the Soviet time. But that doesn't mean that it's worse. |
Fake security? Yeah, tell that to the millions of workers who lost jobs after the break-up, millions of pensioners and disabled who lost dividents and were no longer receiving money on time, and the inflation wasnt counted on it - I know, I've been with my grandparents, see it all. Tell this to the 700,000 Russians who have contracted HIV/AIDS since 1991. Tell it to the Chechens, Abkhazians, the decimated peoples of the Far East and Far North who lost funding and income because the state went bankrupt aftet the dissolution of Soviet Union. Tell it to the tens of thousands of children, who became homeless after their parents threw them out or became homeless themselves. Tell it to the ... oh, my, the examples are countless!!!
Sure it wasnt paradise under communist in Soviet Union - but for most part people had jobs, security, food (for most part), no AIDS and , tight borders. They whined about lack of free speech and . Then they started whining in 1990s about the poor living conditions.
Alcohol was always a problem. BUT WHEN SOVIET UNION FELL APART, it became A BIGGER problem, because people's problems GOT BIGGER! Many more people die from alcohol in Russia than in Soviet Union.
My dad told me stories of how he partied in 1980s ... discoteques, bars, friends and stuff. People had fun, people had enough. Instead of taking changes slowly, they demanded freedom, and it tore up Soviet Union, with thanks to the idiot inner circles of Communist Party as well.
You know why Soviet economy, industry and farming was failing and under-planned? Because people in charge of it weren't experts in the field - they were communist party members who didnt know jack about their fields. So they would one year make too many tractors, wasting money and watching the excess tractors sit and rust. And so with agriculture, politics, etc. etc. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by star-traveller
That was a pathetic war. The war that the US has leaded against the CIA trained fighters. Russia is the one who should've been wipe out all those bastards when it has a chance. But thanks to the US it didn't happen. |
Taliban / mujahideen were American trained and supported. Basically after Americans withdrew, Pro-American supported funded and trained Taliban took over. There are plenty videos and info out there showing Taliban touring USA, talking with senior officials ...
Oh I forgot the most important thing with this Russian topic: In the Chechen war, the first one, Russian forces DECIMATED the urban areas like Grozny. Most people who lived in the city were ethnic Russian, and since they didnt have any connections in the rural areas or in the mountains, they stayed in the city, while many Chechens left for mountains and suburbs because they had extended family and connections. AND MOST of the people who stayed behind, ethnic Russians, that is - were the ONES WHO WERE SLAUGHTERED/BOMBARDED/PILLAGED/ROBBED by the ill-equipped, corrupted dirty Russian army filled with young 18-year-old conscripts who have only been holding the guns for the first time.
So its not like Russian forces killed Chechens - they killed their own people, and sold guns to the rebels for drugs and money and fought them the next day too. It was a very wacky time in Chechnya in 1990s, I'd say the worst blunder by Yeltsin and his commanders and terrible terrible era ... I've read enough about entire cities, roads, armies wiped out ... both Russian and Chechen fighters killed civilians, Russians for money and Chechens for retribution helping Russians (like the Kadirov senior, who was killed by a bomb in 2003)
So I am not just one sided. I was against the first Chechen war, but supporting the second war. I can discuss why later if you want to know ;-) |
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