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US Frigid Cold, European Gale Force Winds: Planet's Immune System? (pg. 3)
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| Dupz |
| One of the local news sources here in Australia quoted a study which found that our current drought is a one in 1,000 year occurance. Of course some have argued against the findings, but having fuk all rain here since 1996 isnt something to dismiss. |
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| Nautilus |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Shibby
1. immune systems do not actually exist |
Yeah, after Aids gets done with you.
Explain? |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Arbiter
Thanks for the laugh. You global warming kooks really crack me up - I think some of you have spent a little too much time watching The Day After Tomorrow. :stongue:
Yeah, the planet is getting warmer. No, the sky is not falling, the planet isn't going to be ravaged with continuous and devastating storms, biodiversity is not going to be crippled by CO2 levels much lower than life has already thrived under, and, no, we're not going to be wiped out by a planet trying to defend itself against us (as if the planet itself is somehow better off with that carbon in the ground than in the air :rolleyes: ). |
No, its YOU guys are crazy.When snow falls where it was never seen before, when temperatures in India are 10-15 below seasonal, when December is the warmest month on record, when 2006 was the year with the most hurricanes on record, when more and more tornadoes are appearing - the signs are here. And no, I am not talking about some dumb movie Day After Tomorrow. Its funny how some movie always comes up right on time to discredit WHAT IS ACTUALLY going on.
Its not CO2 thats cripping the biodiversity, WE ARE. We are cutting down 10 acres of rainforest every minute (according to wikipedia). And rainforests are home to half of the world's species of life. Guys like you have no idea of what Earth is, and you live on this planet, you should be ashamed of yourself. Sahara desert has nearly doubled in size in the last 2000 years. North Africa used to be the breadbasket of Roman Empire, now its mainly desert. Island if Hispanola was 97% covered by lush deep forest before Europeans arrived, now only 3% of the island is forest. And many more facts. You dont know man! |
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| Lilith |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
United Nations report says that EVERY single lifesystem on the planet is in decline. You doon'tt believe it, oh well. Even if I had the paper on me, you won't believe it. I know your kind.
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My kind?
What the moderately successful female kind, I hardly believe that, along with the fact youre out to 'bully' your way around an argument and trade personal insults. Weather is a personal interest of mine as I was raised on farms all my life and so you do tend to take a long term perspective on things rather than a knee jerk, short term analysis on things.
Short term analysis is great for two things-
Simple minded morons who will believe anything you tell them
Media publications aimed at raising sales due to public hysteria
The even more worrisome fact is we have very little in the way of long term documentation on weather patterns and even less on what causes the anomalies and 'freaks' of nature as theyre liable to be called. What is happening now and will probably continue to happen into next year is a result of the el nino cycle, the cyclones, strange heat and cold in places will probably only end around early 2008.
Then we'll be back to some semblance of normality.
What I won't dispute is the heat patterns we get around Africa and Australia, two continents I have had a fair bit to do with in terms of living in and some involvement in farms there where you pay attention to the weather and make sure you are careful on the off seasons.
Records, proper ones which are recorded by weather stations only go back to the mid 1800's which in the grand perspective of time isnt something to be considered terribly accurate as a statistic.
Statistics have big bumps and troughs in them which arent very good for even short terms as your median average ends up being fairly rough.
It looks like this-
So, lets have a long term look at things, core samples.
Interesting pattern there as we're heading into another high point... just like it always seems to have been doing over history.
Problems
Things that are undeniable though is the people problem, for the better part of human history our population over the globe could be measured in millions, now it's in billions.
When we where measured in millions people simply upped, moved and settled somewhere else where they could grow things and not get washed away by the ebb and flow of icecaps melting, sea levels rising and falling.
Now, we're starting to get very thin, not in terms of numbers but thin on the fact that our arable land is shrinking and there simply isnt any room to migrate. So, the large concentrations of people in comparatively small areas naturally accumulate more casualties when there is a 'natural disaster', that and the fact as a society we do tend to build our larger cities over what was formally arable, fertile land which allowed them to become that big in the first place because we could grow more to eat. More to eat, means more people.
What will happen when these things happen is people will die
Either of starvation or from being killed by nature sticking the boot in their arse, in any case its simply not much we can do about it. We can build things to hold back oceans and 'weatherproof' living areas but ultimately we're constantly trying to out-do nature and control it, which for some time has not taken kindly to it and made people look foolish.
Because we are foolish.
We live short lifespans and have very little larger overview of what happens in the natural world until its too late, we get smashed and its a lifetime event which sticks in people minds because they don't really have a general perspective which is encompassing more than a few decades. As a result it is often 'overhyped' as being more terrible than it really is and not a statistical basis for anything except a high or low variation on the median average.
Burning stuff
A lot of fuss is made about burning things, coal, petroleum and wood, this is a fair enough complaint about having carbon and CO2 in the air because it's unhealthy for us. However, not many of us are willing to put up with the lifes luxuries of the modern age being taken away from us. After all the power your computer is using right now in a day is probably more than was used in a week by 4 generations before you.
We like our power, it will not be given up quickly and it will not be reduced anytime soon because its a fundamental fact of life we will not part with. Along with our cars, refrigerators and aircon and other things that make life livable in large concentrations of people who sometimes need to travel long distances.
It will not change, quit crying for it to change unless you take the ultimate step and go bush, living in a mud hut and a subsistance lifestyle.
What can be done is to make our use of that energy over the wider, world society more efficient, that will reduce the amount to some level of sustainable pollution into the atmosphere.
Speaking of which, 'greenhouse' gases, what do we really know about them?
Not very much, they havent been studied very long and as such I'm skeptical (look up the definintion of skeptical before you come to any wild conclusions) as to 'what' they do. Accurate spectrographic analysis of such gases, the environment and how they interact, what they do to temperature hasnt been going on very long at all. We've certainly had levels like this currently in the past, somewhere along the line humans have managed to survive them along with a large amount of mass extinctions in the past.
Somehow, both flora, fauna and humans keep going on...
So what do we do about Carbon and CO2 in the atmosphere?
Aside from huge takeup of the existing natural sources like plants and oceans we can plant trees to make up for what is occouring in the world due to people looking for timber, fuel and making arable land.
Happy times, plant a tree, pat yourself on the ass and think youre wonderful
But what about the people in X-developing country who cut all their forests down, how doe we stop them?
Its simple. We can't.
Unless of course we're willing to dump huge amounts of foreign aid on them to drag them out of the current cycle of deforestation but its much more expedient to exploit them for cheap labour, low cost imports, food and drop bombs on them once in awhile to support our developed country lifestyles.
If they do not cut down trees, burn coal and make forests into fields, then they starve to death.
How do you think your current countries got to where they are?
They did exactly that before anyone else did and at a far more rapid rate than the developing countries did.
For more on the extremes of weather, global warming and the current extremes of el-nino effects you can do worse than check out this site-
NOAA Satellite and Information Service
No hype, no BS, just the simple facts in simple english.
The rest of this I have simply dragged out of my poor old brain which has had an interest in the weather since I was a little girl. However as grown adults, well at least one of us is.
If you come here looking for a flame fest, wrong forum, go up a few to the COR and start making ass jokes.
Down here, we'll pummel you into the dirt coming in half-cocked and holding your like you are now. |
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| Arbiter |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
No, its YOU guys are crazy.When snow falls where it was never seen before, when temperatures in India are 10-15 below seasonal, when December is the warmest month on record, when 2006 was the year with the most hurricanes on record, when more and more tornadoes are appearing - the signs are here. And no, I am not talking about some dumb movie Day After Tomorrow. Its funny how some movie always comes up right on time to discredit WHAT IS ACTUALLY going on. |
Crazy though I may be, I'm not the one drawing conclusions about what constitutes "normal" weather patterns based on observing (with varying degrees of thoroughness and accuracy) approximately 3x10^-8 percent of the Earth's climate history. It's no surprise that we set records in various meteorological phenomena every year - there are far more records to set than years we've been recording those phenomena!
| quote: | | Its not CO2 thats cripping the biodiversity, WE ARE. We are cutting down 10 acres of rainforest every minute (according to wikipedia). And rainforests are home to half of the world's species of life. Guys like you have no idea of what Earth is, and you live on this planet, you should be ashamed of yourself. Sahara desert has nearly doubled in size in the last 2000 years. North Africa used to be the breadbasket of Roman Empire, now its mainly desert. Island if Hispanola was 97% covered by lush deep forest before Europeans arrived, now only 3% of the island is forest. And many more facts. You dont know man! |
I agree that some human activities are negatively impacting life on Earth. :eek:
Now if you want to sit down and discuss how we can reduce deforestation, that's fine with me. But you have to realize that we can't have that discussion while you're still shouting crazed doomsday propaganda from the rooftops. |
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| Fir3start3r |
Nice article there Lilith.
Again, facts > Magnetonium's 1/2 ass arguments.
Anyways, I was going to post this in a separate post but I think it's pretty relavant here actually...
| quote: |
Solar power eliminates utility bills in U.S. home
By Jon HurdleThu Jan 18, 9:24 AM ET
Michael Strizki heats and cools his house year-round and runs a full range of appliances including such power-guzzlers as a hot tub and a wide-screen TV without paying a penny in utility bills.
His conventional-looking family home in the pinewoods of western New Jersey is the first in the United States to show that a combination of solar and hydrogen power can generate all the electricity needed for a home.
The Hopewell Project, named for a nearby town, comes at a time of increasing concern over U.S. energy security and worries over the effects of burning fossil fuels on the climate.
"People understand that climate change is a big concern but they don't know what they can do about it," said Gian-Paolo Caminiti of Renewable Energy International, the commercial arm of the project. "There's a psychological dividend in doing the right thing," he said.
Strizki runs the 3,000-square-foot house with electricity generated by a 1,000-square-foot roof full of photovoltaic cells on a nearby building, an electrolyzer that uses the solar power to generate hydrogen from water, and a number of hydrogen tanks that store the gas until it is needed by the fuel cell.
In the summer, the solar panels generate 60 percent more electricity than the super-insulated house needs. The excess is stored in the form of hydrogen which is used in the winter -- when the solar panels can't meet all the domestic demand -- to make electricity in the fuel cell. Strizki also uses the hydrogen to power his fuel-cell driven car, which, like the domestic power plant, is pollution-free.
Solar power currently contributes only 0.1 percent of U.S. energy needs but the number of photovoltaic installations grew by 20 percent in 2006, and the cost of making solar panels is dropping by about 7 percent annually, according to the Solar Energy Industries Association.
As costs decline and the search accelerates for clean alternatives to expensive and dirty fossil fuels, some analysts predict solar is poised for a significant expansion in the next five to 10 years.
STATE SUPPORT
The New Jersey project, which opened in October 2006 after four years of planning and building, cost around $500,000, some $225,000 of which was provided by the New Jersey Board of Public Utilities. The state, a leading supporter of renewable energy, aims to have 20 percent of its energy coming from renewables by 2020, and currently has the largest number of solar-power installations of any U.S. state except California.
New Jersey's utility regulator supported the project because it helps achieve the state's renewable-energy goals, said Doyal Siddell a spokesman for the agency.
"The solar-hydrogen residence project provides a tremendous opportunity to reduce greenhouse gases that contribute to global warming," he said.
The project also got equipment and expertise from a number of commercial sponsors including Exide, which donated some $50,000 worth of batteries, and Swageloc, an Ohio company that provided stainless steel piping costing around $28,000. Strizki kicked in about $100,000 of his own money.
While the cost may deter all but wealthy environmentalists from converting their homes, Strizki and his associates stress the project is designed to be replicated and that the price tag on the prototype is a lot higher than imitators would pay. Now that first-time costs of research and design have been met, the price would be about $100,000, Strizki said.
But that's still too high for the project to be widely replicated, said Marchant Wentworth of the Union of Concerned Scientists, an environmental group in Washington. To be commonly adopted, such installations would have to be able to sell excess power to the grid, generating a revenue stream that could be used to attract capital, he said.
"You need to make the financing within reach of real people," Wentworth said.
Caminiti argues that the cost of the hydrogen/solar setup works out at about $4,000 a year when its $100,000 cost is spread over the anticipated 25-year lifespan of the equipment. That's still a lot higher than the $1,500 a year the average U.S. homeowner spends on energy, according to the federal government. Even if gasoline costs averaging about $1,000 per car annually are included in the energy mix, the renewables option is still more expensive than the grid/gasoline combination.
But for Strizki and his colleagues, the house is about a lot more than the bottom line. It's about energy security at a time when the federal government is seeking to reduce dependence on fossil fuels from the Middle East, and it's about sustaining a lifestyle without emitting greenhouse gases.
For the 51-year-old Strizki, the project is his life's work. "I have dedicated my life to making the planet a better place," he said.
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>>Source<<
Personally, I think that is very cool and would love to be able to do something like that to my place (...if I had a place...currently looking actually) if only to kill the hydro bill (oh and help save the planet and all that *raises fist in the air*)
But 100,000 clams?? yikes.
Hopefully, in my lifetime, they'll come up with a cheaper way of doing this that everyone can afford.
Yes, I know you must be shocked with such things I type; it's my inner hippie dig? ;) |
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| Magnetonium |
Yeah, yeah, I know about the weather records. Yeah we're in for the warming and then substantial cooling will result in ice age bla bla bla. I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the weather extremes. Here in Ontario not long ago it was like +10, and down in South California it was like -2 at the same time.
Thats not a definition of global warming, though Earth is warming, but this is a sign of extreme weather. Thats my point. I threw in some environmental stuff because I believe that the massive ecological disaster is caused by our actions and has an effect on the weather cycle, like human-caused emissions are adding to the fire, release of human-caused chlorine and methane which is absolutely terrible for the ozone. Thats what I am talking about. Do you understand? You think humans are all innocent? Come on, I am not saying any hurtful remarks right now, but consider what I just said and please don't make a dumb answer in return. |
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| Lilith |
Your argument takes on about two minutes to consider.
It's yesterdays weather and you have nothing but a short sighted view on things blinded by current events, rather than the holism that is involved in looking at it objectively.
That and the idea of simply saying people arent innocent gives me an ugly feeling that youre some kind of extreme-greenie that would quite happily shut down anything thats hurting the earth tommorrow and then go back to his western university, via his car and fiddle with the central heating until its all nice and warm or cool. In the meantime the other 70% of the worlds population which lives on subsistance farming ups and dies.
Because no matter how you wing it, fiddle it or try to come up with some kind of easy solution it will just make several billion people starve to death.
The only kind of idiot that thinks billions should die are the halfwit trolls that wander through here cheering that idea on. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lilith
Your argument takes on about two minutes to consider.
It's yesterdays weather and you have nothing but a short sighted view on things blinded by current events, rather than the holism that is involved in looking at it objectively.
That and the idea of simply saying people arent innocent gives me an ugly feeling that youre some kind of extreme-greenie that would quite happily shut down anything thats hurting the earth tommorrow and then go back to his western university, via his car and fiddle with the central heating until its all nice and warm or cool. In the meantime the other 70% of the worlds population which lives on subsistance farming ups and dies.
Because no matter how you wing it, fiddle it or try to come up with some kind of easy solution it will just make several billion people starve to death.
The only kind of idiot that thinks billions should die are the halfwit trolls that wander through here cheering that idea on. |
How do you think people survived before the oil was discovered, or before the Industrial Age for that matter? Because of the stupid oil and Industrial Revolution our population exploded like parasites on a petri dish and to tell you the truth, buddy, the supplies are finite. One way or another, even this oil is going to end and MORE people will starve because oil is out. I'd rather have it happen now so that there will be more environment left than later when more people will die and environment will be further depleted. Do you get the picture? Earth is f-i-n-i-t-e. Stop hoping. Its hopeless. Actions speak louder than words. The reason there is subsidies based farming is to feed you and me, the city people. Frankly, the farmers have enough to feed themselves, haha. Dont worry about them. Its your ass thats in trouble. |
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| Sunsnail |
| If you look back at record temperatures, they go back a really long way... |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sunsnail
If you look back at record temperatures, they go back a really long way... |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Yeah, yeah, I know about the weather records. Yeah we're in for the warming and then substantial cooling will result in ice age bla bla bla. I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the weather extremes. Here in Ontario not long ago it was like +10, and down in South California it was like -2 at the same time.
Thats not a definition of global warming, though Earth is warming, but this is a sign of extreme weather. Thats my point. I threw in some environmental stuff because I believe that the massive ecological disaster is caused by our actions and has an effect on the weather cycle, like human-caused emissions are adding to the fire, release of human-caused chlorine and methane which is absolutely terrible for the ozone. Thats what I am talking about. Do you understand? You think humans are all innocent? Come on, I am not saying any hurtful remarks right now, but consider what I just said and please don't make a dumb answer in return. |
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| DJ Shibby |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Earth is f-i-n-i-t-e. Stop hoping. Its hopeless. |
Hm...
You think the future will end with hydrocarbons and this planet?
The big picture is way beyond these little elements. Though they are vital at the moment, since we are at a fulcrum determining how much lift we will have in the evolution of our immediate future.
Though I guess we will see just how adaptive and intuitive our species really is. |
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