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Science vs Religion - who will win? (pg. 4)
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| RJT |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
Science deals with empirical adequacy. When a scientist makes metaphysical statements, he is not doing science.
So I guess we agree? |
I think so. I'm not positve - but it wouldn't shock me. We've had a tendency to be on the same page on issues like these in the past ;) |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
It was Peter, not Jesus, if I recall, who more or less started the Christian Church; quite some time after Jesus' death. And I am sure that Peter lived quite well after his myth mongering. So funny how some myths seem so much more believable than others - is this because of their credibility or is it more due to the fact that several thousands of years of indoctrination within human cultural development has established deeply-rooted archetypes of messianic behaviour? |
History seems to indicate that myths become much more believable whenever worldly rulers start openly accepting or enforcing them. |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
| quote: | Originally posted by Aristronica
well i don't think Peter was neccessarily taking a piss too. but you make a valid point. we see this today all the time a la Rev. Jesse Jackson and MLK Jr. For all we know Jesus could've hated Peter's guts but after his death Peter saw a financial/political opportunity and whored the out of it. |
Precisely. I am not saying that Peter was a straight-up liar or that he only did it for financial gain - I mean, I didn't know the guy, nor do I study religious history, but I do think that if more people reflected on this possibility and then analyzed whether it would actually make a difference in their faith, it would do them a lot of good.
| quote: | Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
History seems to indicate that myths become much more believable whenever worldly rulers start openly accepting or enforcing them. |
Yeah, like I said, some myths have been blown out of proportion (or into proportion, depending on what side of the fence of faith you stand on) and have simply changed the way that people view their world. I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing, but I think it really testifies how powerful the presence of religion really is in modern civilization. People readily accept impossibilities as both literal and figurative fact without truly questioning the possibility of its implications in both the human psyche as well as our place in the universe - and why wouldn't they? It's how the world works, it's how they were raised, its deeply ingrained into all the cultural backdrop that they know. The symbolism of some things is enough to bring people to their knees - that's power. That's control. |
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| lex400sc |
| quote: | Originally posted by idoru
I like religion, but only for the various things it teaches. There are some great pieces of advice, moral suggestions and aspects of living your life that each religion teaches, and that's what I like about it. |
fun fact: morality and religion are seperate things. people learned morality LONG before religion existed. it's a hoax to suggest that is the only way one can be taught morality. granted it's true religion is the easiest way to relate morality to uneducated and poor people.
perhaps the most impactful thing religion teaches the human mind is how to accept statements as fact without any basis in proof. that is a dangerous thing. |
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| idoru |
| quote: | Originally posted by lex400sc
fun fact: morality and religion are seperate things. people learned morality LONG before religion existed. it's a hoax to suggest that is the only way one can be taught morality. granted it's true religion is the easiest way to relate morality to uneducated and poor people. |
I know they're separate things and that religion isn't the only way to learn them. I'm just saying that some of the moral aspects they teach are interesting/worth taking to heart. |
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| lex400sc |
| quote: | Originally posted by idoru
I know they're separate things and that religion isn't the only way to learn them. I'm just saying that some of the moral aspects they teach are interesting/worth taking to heart. |
what i'm suggesting is that no religious context needs to be taught alongside whatever interesting/worthwhile moral lessons are brought up in the bible or wherever else. there are MUCH better ways of teaching moral intelligence than through relating them in anecdotal stories. that's the problem of religious morality, there is no structure or theory to it, just examples of what to do in certain situations.
i would think that if there is a god, he would more approve of people who committed acts of kindness and compassion out of the good of their hearts than those who do it out of fear of punishment and hope of reward. i would also think that a god would more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind-folded fear. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| For many people, religion serves a much deeper desire than just moral education. I'm a materialist atheist, but I can still recognize that. |
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| lex400sc |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
For many people, religion serves a much deeper desire than just moral education. I'm a materialist atheist, but I can still recognize that. |
yeah the deeper desire would be a false hope in an immortal soul and the inability of human ego to accept the true reality of the natural world. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| There is that, yes. There is also a temptation to personify the "numinous," if you are into that sort of thing. |
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| lex400sc |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
There is that, yes. There is also a temptation to personify the "numinous," if you are into that sort of thing. |
in that respect, modern religion is just as laughable as greek mythology. if you want to create a personified god with a story and rules for everything you don't understand, history has proven many times over that it may provide a sense of comfort to relate to a nebulous concept such as the sun by worshipping a sun god or death/afterlife by worshipping a god of afterlife, but regardless of this state of denial, you aren't going to change the actual circumstances in which you exist. some people prefer to live an illusion, others curiously seek the truth. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by lex400sc
modern religion is just as laughable as greek mythology. |
I agree. |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
| quote: | Originally posted by lex400sc
what i'm suggesting is that no religious context needs to be taught alongside whatever interesting/worthwhile moral lessons are brought up in the bible or wherever else. there are MUCH better ways of teaching moral intelligence than through relating them in anecdotal stories. that's the problem of religious morality, there is no structure or theory to it, just examples of what to do in certain situations.
i would think that if there is a god, he would more approve of people who committed acts of kindness and compassion out of the good of their hearts than those who do it out of fear of punishment and hope of reward. i would also think that a god would more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind-folded fear. |
Yeah, whatever Mr. Smarty-britches. Next time you need to know how many oxen to give to a man who has slept with your wife because she has uncovered her face in public, we'll see who you turn to for advice! :rolleyes: :mad: |
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