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*Updated* Shooting in Virginia school (pg. 4)
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| Shakka |
A tragic event occurred and, as if on cue, the topic comes to the forefront about gun posession. Three things are certain: The NRA will be condemned, the Constitution will NOT be amended due to isolated evente involving crazy citizenry, and lastly, many families and friends will grieve for the senseless and tragic loss of their loved ones.
On a more personal note, in 1999 I brushed closer than I would've liked with a gun raging crazy man. While working on the ground floor of an office building in 1999, a man entered my building complex and proceeded to shoot and kill 9 people while wounding 13 others. You don't change the constitution because crazy rears its head. I think a more appropriate action is to 1) get to the bottom of the story to understand why what happened happened, and 2)try to come up with better ways to locate people that need help while recognizing that we will never be able to prevent every event like this from happening.
Gotta love that shirt!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Barton
| quote: |  Mark Orrin Barton (1955 - July 29, 1999) was a spree killer from Stockbridge, Georgia, who, on July 29, 1999, shot and killed nine people and injured 13 more. The shootings occurred at two Atlanta day trading firms -- Momentum Securities and the All-Tech Investment Group. It is believed that Barton, a daytrader, was motivated by $105,000 USD in losses over the previous two months. Barton committed suicide four hours later at an Acworth gas station, having been spotted by the police. He was ordered to stop at a gas station, but shot himself before the police could reach him.
Following the shootings, police found that Barton's second wife and 2 children (Leigh Ann Vandiver Barton, Matthew David Barton, and Mychelle Elizabeth Barton) had been murdered by hammer blows a few days before. The children had then been placed in bed, as if sleeping. Barton had been a suspect after the 1993 murders of his first wife, Deborah Spivey Barton, and her mother, Eloise Powell Spivey, who had been beaten to death at Riverside Campground, Weiss Lake, in northeastern Alabama.
[edit] Quotes
* Immediately prior to entering the manager's office at All-Tech, Barton was heard to say:
o "I hope this doesn't ruin your trading day." - This statement is actually attributed to one of the survivors being interviewed at the scene by an Atlanta police officer.
* "There may be similarities between these deaths and the death of my first wife Debra Spivey. However, I deny killing her and her mother. There is no reason for me to lie now."
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For the extended read, go here:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorio...cide/index.html
p.s. I watched 24 tonight. I think Jack Bauer has now single handedly killed enough people to populate a small nation. |
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| NeoPhono |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
no, not "exactly". how many similar events have been prevented by our gun laws we'll never know. but because people can circumvent the law, is that reason to not have laws to begin with? people still speed despite laws curtailing speed limits, why have these limits at all huh? |
How many times can you find people going insane and killing 30+ people in the US? Of course we hear about every one of them because it's on the news. With a country of 300 million, with just about every person being able to own a gun, it happens very infrequently. How do we know this guy didn't circumvent laws/waiting periods? How do we know he got his weapons through legal means? How do we know that even if gun laws were much stricter here, he wouldn't have found a gun through alternative means?
We can post as many "what ifs" and "maybes" as we want, but I'll stick to my original thought; people that want to kill will kill no matter the law. I'm not saying there should not be laws and regulations, I'm saying there comes a point where you have to balance accessibility for normal, sane citizens with trying to prevent guns from falling into the hands of the criminally insane. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by NeoPhono
How many times can you find people going insane and killing 30+ people in the US? Of course we hear about every one of them because it's on the news. With a country of 300 million, with just about every person being able to own a gun, it happens very infrequently. How do we know this guy didn't circumvent laws/waiting periods? How do we know he got his weapons through legal means? How do we know that even if gun laws were much stricter here, he wouldn't have found a gun through alternative means?
We can post as many "what ifs" and "maybes" as we want, but I'll stick to my original thought; people that want to kill will kill no matter the law. I'm not saying there should not be laws and regulations, I'm saying there comes a point where you have to balance accessibility for normal, sane citizens with trying to prevent guns from falling into the hands of the criminally insane. |
Its very rare, but I agree with you on this one. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by NeoPhono
How many times can you find people going insane and killing 30+ people in the US? Of course we hear about every one of them because it's on the news. With a country of 300 million, with just about every person being able to own a gun, it happens very infrequently. How do we know this guy didn't circumvent laws/waiting periods? How do we know he got his weapons through legal means? How do we know that even if gun laws were much stricter here, he wouldn't have found a gun through alternative means?
We can post as many "what ifs" and "maybes" as we want, but I'll stick to my original thought; people that want to kill will kill no matter the law. I'm not saying there should not be laws and regulations, I'm saying there comes a point where you have to balance accessibility for normal, sane citizens with trying to prevent guns from falling into the hands of the criminally insane. |
whether he circumvented laws or checks is irrelevant; a society where guns are so easy to come by means any (late) methods of controlling firearms is next to useless. there are just too many of them floating around.
asides from the "fun" factor (and trust me, i ing love guns) there arent real reasons for most people to own a firearm. and im less concerned about the mass murders than i am about the so-called "sane" citizens that can have a bad day.
ive already stated many times that i dont believe gun laws will help anyone in america. youre ed. but, i love the fact that australia never had an inalienable right stuck in our constitution that prevented us from removing a large percentage of firearms from the available market. sure, theres still illegal gun crime, but i think the overall stats speak for themselves:
| quote: |
For robberies that involved a weapon, the proportion involving a firearm decreased from 36% in 1994 to 15% in 2003. A firearm was involved in 20% of attempted murders, 13% of murders and 6% of robberies. Firearm use in murders peaked at 32% in 1996, but has since declined steadily to 13% in 2003 which is the lowest level on record. For attempted murders in 2003, a firearm was used in 20% of offences, marginally above its low of 19% in 1998 and well below its high of 32% in 1999 (graph 11.13).
A knife was the most common type of weapon used for attempted murders (33%), murders (28%) and robberies (19%). |
australian bureau of statistics |
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| Fir3start3r |
Take away the guns and the only ones left with them are the ones committing the crimes...
(Because Prohibition worked so damn well...)
Democracies aren't all chaos; there IS going to be some sort of security to protect ourselves from ourselves.
In regards to the main subject, definitely tragic.
My heart goes out to all those involved. :sadgreen: |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Take away the guns and the only ones left with them are the ones committing the crimes...
(Because Prohibition worked so damn well...) |
that logic doesn't make any sense. find me some stats on the legal use of firearms that have prevented crime (that werent used by the police).
and yes, prohibition works well in countries where the supply of firearms hasnt gone unfettered for decades. |
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| MisterOpus1 |
I'm going to repeat what I said in the COR thread.
And yes, you heard that right - I was in the COR. Christ, I even started the thread on this topic over there. Almost forgot how to get there, but anyway:
It's tempting to go off on a political point with gun control/concealed carry policies, but I really don't think at this point there's much to be said about it. These incidents, though very tragic, are the exception and not the rule. I'm not a gun owner (though a few gangs wanted me to join because I'm pretty good with the bow staff ), and I'm not much for concealed carry laws, which if given a choice I'd prefer to see more gun control laws. However, I'm not so much against it to point to some tragic event like this and use this as a vindication for that feeling I have that tends to side with more gun control.
Besides, if someone really wants to look at a bigger picture, you simply turn your glance towards Iraq and notice what happens on any given day:
04/15/07 Reuters: 19 bodies found in Baghdad on Saturday
Police found the bodies of 19 people in various parts of Baghdad in the past 24 hours, police said.(http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/KHA430762.htm)
04/15/07 Reuters: 20 Iraqi troops and policemen abducted
A group linked to al Qaeda said it abducted 20 Iraqi troops and policemen and demanded the release of all Sunni women held in Iraq's prisons, according to a Web statement (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/KHA430762.htm)
04/15/07 Reuters: 4 killed by suicide bombers in Mosul
Four people, including two Iraqi soldiers, were killed and 16 wounded when two oil trucks driven by suicide bombers exploded outside a military base in the northern city of Mosul, police said.(http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L15575809.htm)
04/15/07 AP: Suicide bomber kills 5, wounds 11 in northwest Baghdad
A suicide bomber blew himself up on a minibus in northwest Baghdad, killing at least eight people and wounding 11, police and hospital officials said. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlate...6559190,00.html)
04/15/07 AP: 37 die as car bomb hits near Iraq shrine
A car bomb blasted through a busy bus station near one of Iraq's holiest shrines Saturday, killing at least 37 people, police and hospital officials said. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/...mb_N.htm?csp=34)
Again, I don't want to take away the horrific tragedy that's taken place in our own country today, but events like this is like the ing Groundhog Day movie in Iraq, only much much worse. If there's any political points to be made for someone trying to expand on a bigger picture for this story, perhaps they should start there instead of gun control laws. |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
that logic doesn't make any sense. find me some stats on the legal use of firearms that have prevented crime (that werent used by the police).
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Here's a recent one where it's definitely NOT working...
| quote: |
This post was written by Robert VerBruggen on 25 January, 2007 (20:10) | All News, UK News, Second Amendment News
Serious gun crime up in the UK
They just don’t get it. Yesterday I noted how DC’s mayor admitted his city has both the strictest gun control laws and close to the highest crime rate in the country. Now, folks in the UK are complaining of their high (and once again increasing) severe gun crimes. Both governments ban handguns completely.
Odd thing: Both called for more and better gun control. Doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result, you know the drill.
From UK’s The Times:
“Robberies at gunpoint increased by 10 per cent last year in England and Wales…
“The figures include armed robberies in the street, which rose by 9 per cent, and armed robberies in homes, which almost doubled. The figures have been falling for the past four years…
“The total number of robberies at gunpoint rose to 1,439 and the number of gun robberies at residential properties jumped by 46 per cent to 645, an increase of 204 and more than five times the level recorded when Labour came to power…
“Overall, gun crime fell last year…But killings by strangers have almost doubled to 302 since Labour came to power.”
A quick note on severe gun crime having fallen in previous years: It may be true, but the UK’s ban went into effect ten years ago, not four. So, neither this specific increase nor the previous decrease is due to gun control, because gun laws didn’t change in those years.
But the UK’s overall gun crime problem got worse after the ban went into effect. It’s very likely that, at least in part, this is due to criminals knowing their victims won’t bear arms. Gun robberies at residential properties are a case in point — in the US, thieves make sure homeowners aren’t home to avoid gunfights, but in the UK there is a much higher rate of “hot burglary.”
And John Lott has written:
“Crime was not supposed to rise after handguns were banned in 1997. Yet, since 1996 the serious violent crime rate has soared by 69%: robbery is up by 45% and murders up by 54%. Before the law, armed robberies had fallen by 50% from 1993 to 1997, but as soon as handguns were banned the robbery rate shot back up, almost back to their 1993 levels.
“The 2000 International Crime Victimization Survey, the last survey done, shows the violent-crime rate in England and Wales was twice the rate in the U.S. When the new survey for 2004 comes out, that gap will undoubtedly have widened even further as crimes reported to British police have since soared by 35%, while declining 6% in the U.S.”
Tell all that to the UK’s government. Even if they disagree that gun control actually increases gun crime, they should be admitting it doesn’t solve anything, either.
But:
“David Davis, Shadow Home Secretary, said: ‘…Gun crime is mainly fuelled by gang warfare and drug addiction, which is a consequence of Labour’s failing drugs policy. It is exacerbated by our porous borders, which allow illegal weapons to flow into the country.’”
This would at least hold some logic if England had loosened its borders policy, which I can’t seem to find any evidence of — Davis is addressing the increase in crime, not the overall high incidence of it. When explaining a change in one variable, you need to find another variable that also changed. If border security stays the same and gun crime rises, the border security can’t very well cause the gun crime increase.
It’s a common response from gun-grabbers, though, as the DC mayor example showed. When gun control doesn’t work, say other countries or areas — with lower crime rates than yours — are flooding your gun-free zone with illegal weapons.
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>>Source<<
| quote: |
and yes, prohibition works well in countries where the supply of firearms hasnt gone unfettered for decades. |
I was actually referring to alcohol prohibition that was tried in the States (sorry, forgot my audience :P) and failed miserably.
If there is a demand, there WILL be a supplier.
The only good thing that came of alcohol prohibition was the distribution lines created by the mob that later on helped mobilize America for WWII before they could build their I-Series highways. (true story). |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
hehe, i knew which prohibition you were talking about. i also believe theres a big difference in "need" between firearms and alcohol. but, ill take your article on the chin. i would actually prefer to see a bunch of stats taken over the last 10 years, to see a pattern of firearms crime though.
and of course, it did say this
| quote: |
“Overall, gun crime fell last year…But killings by strangers have almost doubled to 302 since Labour came to power.”
A quick note on severe gun crime having fallen in previous years: It may be true, but the UK’s ban went into effect ten years ago, not four. So, neither this specific increase nor the previous decrease is due to gun control, because gun laws didn’t change in those years. |
oh, so laws are known to have a measurable and IMMEDIATE effect upon the populace? oh please. perhaps it takes a while to get guns out of circulation? theres an argument to be made there.
in any case, even the anti-nationalistic pkc loves his country for its stance on guns. but i do plan to travel to the US or vietnam so i can play with some of my favourite assault rifles ;) |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
in any case, even the anti-nationalistic pkc loves his country for its stance on guns. but i do plan to travel to the US or vietnam so i can play with some of my favourite assault rifles ;) |
you should pick up a puddle jumper to our 50th state! they have an entire cottage industry in Waikiki catering to people just like you.;)
Japs love to go there and pop off a few rounds in MP5's, Bushmasters, Armorlites, 44 mags the lot! |
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| DJ Shibby |
This is just another shining example of law enforcement completely failing to do the job we pay them to do.
They really failed on every level here; hours after a murder, the guy is still running around on the same campus... absolutely ridiculous!
There really is no excuse for this. I understand that they're busy writing people traffic tickets, but there is a time for protocol and diligence, and this was that time. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Shibby
They really failed on every level here; hours after a murder, the guy is still running around on the same campus... absolutely ridiculous!
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omg! the campus security MUST have been in on it!
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
you should pick up a puddle jumper to our 50th state! they have an entire cottage industry in Waikiki catering to people just like you.
Japs love to go there and pop off a few rounds in MP5's, Bushmasters, Armorlites, 44 mags the lot! |
im presuming we're talking about hawaii. not really up on my states :p but yeah, id love to do that! |
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