|
When independence seems to be a problem (pg. 4)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| Arbiter |
It is my observation that the ugliest people are the quickest to condemn promiscuity; the frailest, the quickest to condemn violence; the poorest, the quickest to condemn the excesses of the wealthy.
The first principle in the philosophy of the weak is always that it is wrong to be strong, and even more wrong to use one's strengths. |
|
|
| distant |
| quote: | Originally posted by Arbiter
It is my observation that the ugliest people are the quickest to condemn promiscuity; the frailest, the quickest to condemn violence; the poorest, the quickest to condemn the excesses of the wealthy.
The first principle in the philosophy of the weak is always that it is wrong to be strong, and even more wrong to use one's strengths. |
You're slowly becoming my idol aswell. |
|
|
| biznology |
im pretty independent, just something i dealt with while younger and i learned to appreciate it. there are certainly times when i NEED some amount of social interaction, but the amount of drama involved with too much of that is a hindrance to most parts of moving yourself forward.
my gf has somewhat dealt with my need to be alone sometimes as she is very much the opposite. but that just means i have to suck it up and make more of an attempt to leave my comfort zone, as long as i have time to pursue my own interests, often alone| |
|
|
| Omega_Blue |
| quote: | Originally posted by Arbiter
It is my observation that the ugliest people are the quickest to condemn promiscuity; the frailest, the quickest to condemn violence; the poorest, the quickest to condemn the excesses of the wealthy.
The first principle in the philosophy of the weak is always that it is wrong to be strong, and even more wrong to use one's strengths. |
that's a in great quote. i'm.. i'm gonna use it in my FB lol |
|
|
| igottaknow |
| quote: | Originally posted by biznology
im pretty independent, just something i dealt with while younger and i learned to appreciate it. there are certainly times when i NEED some amount of social interaction, but the amount of drama involved with too much of that is a hindrance to most parts of moving yourself forward.
my gf has somewhat dealt with my need to be alone sometimes as she is very much the opposite. but that just means i have to suck it up and make more of an attempt to leave my comfort zone, as long as i have time to pursue my own interests, often alone| |
So your saying Lira's gf is a Liberal? :conf: |
|
|
| Halcyon+On+On |
| quote: | Originally posted by Arbiter
It is my observation that the ugliest people are the quickest to condemn promiscuity; the frailest, the quickest to condemn violence; the poorest, the quickest to condemn the excesses of the wealthy.
The first principle in the philosophy of the weak is always that it is wrong to be strong, and even more wrong to use one's strengths. |
Yeah, well I find that the poor are promiscuous, the ugly are wealthy and that frail people get to breed anyways, so what difference does it make? :p |
|
|
| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
Yeah, well I find that the poor are promiscuous, the ugly are wealthy and that frail people get to breed anyways, so what difference does it make? :p |
it is my understanding that observations only make a difference at the sub-atomic level :clown: |
|
|
| tranceDJ |
| quote: | Originally posted by Arbiter
It is my observation that the ugliest people are the quickest to condemn promiscuity; the frailest, the quickest to condemn violence; the poorest, the quickest to condemn the excesses of the wealthy.
The first principle in the philosophy of the weak is always that it is wrong to be strong, and even more wrong to use one's strengths. |
Somebody's been reading some Nietzsche... |
|
|
| Lilith |
| quote: | Originally posted by Arbiter
The first principle in the philosophy of the weak is always that it is wrong to be strong, and even more wrong to use one's strengths. |
It would be grossly unfair to just throw that at the Japanese as being a part of their culture as being perceived as 'flawed', most people in western cultures are just as weak, just as much inclined to behave like sheep-
It's just done under the guise of individualism being a part of conformity, rather than in Japan it's done under no guise and perhaps a little more realistic honesty than westerners are used to displaying so openly.
Buy the T-Shirt with an obscure band on it, stick bits of metal in your ears/nose/dangly appendages, do your hair up in a way which is a vague tribal reference and you're an individual too!
Funny thing is though that after enough of the add on purchases and decisions made by advertising influence, very little is changed at the psychological level aside from a small sense of self worth that you're not part of the larger social norm and belong to a smaller part of the social norm.
Essentially what the Japanese have done is get rid of most of the bollocks about individuals making a difference. They don't blow smoke up anyone's asses about how they're going to grow up being rich, famous, brain surgeons, astronauts, cure cancer or leaders of countries that western society likes to give children enough optimism with so they can face another day in the drudgery of school and work.
They just tell it how it is.
You're going to probably just live, work and die a nobody, unless you're super talented and able to demonstrate that, then you will be able to step up to that podium as a talented, individual.
For the rest though, there is solace and a sense of peace, self worth knowing that they can make a difference as a group of people working together to better their lives and not cop any crap along the way, either from their peers or their boss, because it's comfortable for them to be accepted. It's comfortable for us to be accepted, we're social animals as much as it's oft derided.
Do I like it?
No, course not, I find none of it applicable to me on a personal level as I have demonstrated personal individualism and attribute some measure of my own personal successes to my individual qualities (and a lot of learning through failure!)
But I'd not judge anyone else as a person because they failed to adopt my qualities into their life, because that would be simply selfish and more than a little cruel of me to impose those if they didn't have the same qualities.
So, we may not like the Japanese culture, but in a way it has a certain degree of honesty to it that is sometimes missing from western culture.
Anyhow, enough rabbiting on about Jap culture from me. |
|
|
| Halcyon+On+On |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lilith
It would be grossly unfair to just throw that at the Japanese as being a part of their culture as being perceived as 'flawed', most people in western cultures are just as weak, just as much inclined to behave like sheep- |
They don't perceive it as a weakness though - not in the same way that westerners tend to. They tend to see the strength in numbers and in interpersonal dependencies rather than the "promise" of individualism...
But really - what is strength? Do both easterners and westerners tend to agree on some universal concept of what composes a worthwhile human being? Arbiter listed some examples that people seemed to agree with - is the precept for a 'strong' person really that of a person who is violent, wealthy, and gets lots of sex? Or is this just an extension of social strives people make (sometimes as individuals?) and seeks to truly tear down the illusion of individuality or separation from one's social limitations? Because it seems to me that if a strong 'individual' possesses only traits that are valuable on a socially comparative level, then he or she is truly not an individual at all. |
|
|
| Lilith |
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
They don't perceive it as a weakness though - not in the same way that westerners tend to. They tend to see the strength in numbers and in interpersonal dependencies rather than the "promise" of individualism... |
No, they certainly don't and the strength comes from the fact they're not BS'ing themselves or have anyone else tell them idealistic fairy tales about their abilities.
If you do have the talent, then a few social norms aren't going to be a worry to you so I don't see them being crushed under peer pressure, the ability is there, it will manifest and you'll be accorded the credit for making or doing something which will define you as a unique person.
| quote: | | But really - what is strength? Do both easterners and westerners tend to agree on some universal concept of what composes a worthwhile human being? Arbiter listed some examples that people seemed to agree with - is the precept for a 'strong' person really that of a person who is violent, wealthy, and gets lots of sex? Or is this just an extension of social strives people make (sometimes as individuals?) and seeks to truly tear down the illusion of individuality or separation from one's social limitations? |
They are common and popular simplifications of how we define individuality amongst our peer group and a lot of that does tend to have a certain level of aggression behind it that has created parts of society which thinks that might makes right.
The ideal drives them too risk taking and socially destructive activities to assert themselves and falls into a another 'social box' of all-sorts which are no longer individuals, merely another group which behaves that way.
It's also a very masculine perspective which marginalises women with independent qualities.
| quote: | | Because it seems to me that if a strong 'individual' possesses only traits that are valuable on a socially comparative level, then he or she is truly not an individual at all. |
That's because the individual is an ideal, rather than a reality.
About the only people who are true individuals are those who have some kind of disassociation, personality disorder which is unaffected by the reality in front of their face. |
|
|
| Arbiter |
I would say that strength, fundamentally, is the ability to bridge the gap between what one wills and what is actual, or, in other words, to successfully achieve what it is one's will to achieve. It is not a particular goal, or a particular means, which constitutes strength, but rather that the outcome reflects the will.
Example:
John wants to have lots of sex. John has lots of sex. (characteristic of strength)
John wants to have lots of sex. John doesn't have sex. (characteristic of weakness)
John does not want or doesn't care whether he has sex or not. (neither strength nor weakness is implied)
Obviously, any person is likely to have strengths and weaknesses: that is, they will be good at achieving success at some things, and less successful at others. Also, some people's goals may be easier to achieve (John may be more likely to fail if he wants to have lots of sex, but only with the most beautiful women), so it is not only the success rate, but the success rate relative to that of others with the same or highly similar goals. This makes perfect sense since strength and weakness are inherently relative concepts to begin with.
The point of my observation is not to suggest that succeeding at certain particular goals (sex, money) or that the use of certain means (violence in this case) are "especially" indicative of strength, although they certainly can be indicative of it (most people don't become wealthy if they don't care about wealth, so if they are wealthy, it suggests they're successful at accomplishing that goal.)
Rather, the point is that those who are not successful frequently attempt to join the third category (those who don't even have the goal to begin with) in order to avoid dealing with their own failures/weaknesses. That is to say, if John wants sex, but isn't getting any, then the idea that having lots of sex is wrong (morally or otherwise) is more likely to be attractive to him. After all, then he can be a success (morally) instead of a failure (sexually). This is, however, ultimately a self-deception, although it can be a successful one (John may eventually genuinely believe that the reason he doesn't have sex is because he'd rather be moral).
In many cases, ideas of this nature can even be adopted as religious or cultural traits (ex: Christianity's treatment of sex) if they are attractive to enough people or sufficiently influential people.
Now, in Lira's case, we're talking about the ability to learn or achieve an objective independently and I want to stress that we're talking about the ability to do it indepdently as well as cooperatively rather than instead of.
I should not need to explain why having more numerous means by which to accomplish a goal will increase the rate of success. If you have one person who can only accomplish some type of goal cooperatively, and another who could accomplish it either cooperatively or independently, then the latter has a clear and unmitigated advantage when it comes to accomplishing as many goals of that type as possible. Consequently, we can say that being able to accomplish it independently is characteristic of strength.
Having a preference for doing things cooperatively is one thing, but having an overt hostility towards the idea of someone else doing things independently is highly suspicious to me and seems extremely similar to the behavior described above (our "moral" John). Particularly in the case of his girlfriend, I'd say that it's a distinct possibility that this is exactly what is happening.
His girlfriend would like to be able to accomplish her goals independently. She probably realizes that she would accomplish more of her goals if she were able to do so. However, she struggles to accomplish them independently. Rather than facing this difficulty directly, she is enticed by the idea that it isn't good to pursue them independently.
Is this necessarily the genesis for his girlfriends point of view, or this particular cultural trait? Of course not. But given such limited information, it is a reasonable hypothesis. |
|
|
|
|
