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Help Stop Deep Integration (SPP, NAU) in Canada (pg. 5)
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
First NAFTA, then SPP, then NAU, what next? |
United Federation of Planets? :D |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
Exactly how is holding out against 'deep integration' going to provide a better deal for Canada in the long term? Whether Canadians like it or not, US is the primary investor in Canadian economy and current economic boom is happening because of trade (which accounts for 85% of Canada's trade with the world) for most part.
As far as I'm concerned, 'deep integration' has happened, ever since Canada joined NAFTA. What only remains is politics, IMO |
Exactly.
There's nothing wrong with greasing the gears on what's already going on.
I don't understand how people always forget how much our economies are already interdependent.
Cloaking our flag around us doesn't change that fact one iota.
The best thing we can do is give our business the tools they need to compete globally; something we're soarly lacking and only just starting to turn around as we realize our resource potential; what we have to offer. |
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| LazFX |
But its so cool to be anti-us :rolleyes:
and that is what fuels allot of this rhetoric |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by LazFX
But its so cool to be anti-us :rolleyes:
and that is what fuels allot of this rhetoric |
I would like to think that it is Canadian Nationalism rather then an anti-US sentiment that gives rise to concern over NAU amongst many Canadians. Unfortunately, for far too many Canadians the only nationalism they know is based on anti-US sentiment... sad to say at the very least. Personally,I have no fears of losing my national identity through further intergration with the US... while we are in no way dissimilar cultures the incongruities that exist are significant and based on differing values on certain issues, neither of us are willing to give up our values so neither of us will demand it from the other. That's the beautiful thing about a relationship based on shared interest and mutual respect. |
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| malek |
RIM ??? are you guys just ing around or what? its tiny!!
Canada just lost Alcan to foreign intrests, third largest aluminium producer which employed 65,000 in 61 countries with 5000 in Canada!!
Canada lost all of its important players in the mining buisness as of late! Its crazy!
Why do foreign interests buy canadian companies? not because they love Canada but because they are profitable and are the best in their fields.
What Canada might become and is becoming is a country full of branch companies where important decisions are taken elsewhere disregarding our own intrest and well-being. |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
I would like to think that it is Canadian Nationalism rather then an anti-US sentiment that gives rise to concern over NAU amongst many Canadians. Unfortunately, for far too many Canadians the only nationalism they know is based on anti-US sentiment... sad to say at the very least. |
Ding!
| quote: | Originally posted by malek
RIM ??? are you guys just ing around or what? its tiny!!
Canada just lost Alcan to foreign intrests, third largest aluminium producer which employed 65,000 in 61 countries with 5000 in Canada!!
Canada lost all of its important players in the mining buisness as of late! Its crazy!
Why do foreign interests buy canadian companies? not because they love Canada but because they are profitable and are the best in their fields.
What Canada might become and is becoming is a country full of branch companies where important decisions are taken elsewhere disregarding our own intrest and well-being. |
Evil capitalists in me says, so Canadian companies decided to sell to foreign companies because foreign companies offer more money... That's inherently bad business practice?
Canada needs these foreign companies for investment, because Canada does not have enough money to develop its resources its own. It's been going on for ages! (Arguably, ever since Hudson's Bay Company since 18th century) |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by malek
RIM ??? are you guys just ing around or what? its tiny!!
Canada just lost Alcan to foreign intrests, third largest aluminium producer which employed 65,000 in 61 countries with 5000 in Canada!!
Canada lost all of its important players in the mining buisness as of late! Its crazy!
Why do foreign interests buy canadian companies? not because they love Canada but because they are profitable and are the best in their fields.
What Canada might become and is becoming is a country full of branch companies where important decisions are taken elsewhere disregarding our own intrest and well-being. |
Well this post gets a big fat, "Duh" ;) :p
Again, putting up walls and having Crown corporations buy stuff up in the name of patriotism is not exactly a great game plan.
Adscam ring any bells?
(For those of you that aren't sure what I'm refering to here: > Sponsership Scandal <; it was Canada's largest government scandal in history).
I had no love of government involvement in business to begin with but that took the cake.
And yet again, we find people still crying out about having the government get involved where free markets should be. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
(Arguably, ever since Hudson's Bay Company since 18th century) |
Excellent point... this country was founded on foriegn investment! |
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| malek |
Actually, once a company start a hostile takeover over another one, its hard to stop the ball. Alcoa started by an offer, and it was rejected by Alcan. But once the shares start soaring and other companies start lining up to offer more and more, its impossible for Alcan to stop it because shareholders want to cash in!
Alcan looses control over the whole process and is forced to negotiate with the bidder in order to save face because the rug could just slip under them and we could loose big in Canada! |
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| malek |
Here's a nice article to put things into perspective!!
Alcan buyout called "economic suicide" for Canada
Lynn Moore, CanWest News Service
Published: Saturday, July 14, 2007
MONTREAL -- The proposed acquisition of Alcan Inc. by the London- and Melbourne, Australia-based Rio Tinto Group is a symptom of "economic suicide" underway in this country, Montreal billionaire and shareholder activist Stephen Jarislowsky said Friday.
Others use less dramatic language as they engage in the hollowing-out-of-corporate-Canada debate but admit to growing concern over deals such as Rio Tinto's friendly $38.1-billion US bid for Alcan.
The Montreal-based aluminum producer is the 10th company on the TSX 60 to be taken over, or poised to be taken over, by a foreign company in the past three years, Jarislowsky noted.
Foreign takeovers are fuelling the Canadian dollar, which is "going through the roof" and contributing to the woes of Canada's exporting and manufacturing companies, he said.
"I think the Canadian government is wrong to let any of the 60 biggest companies get taken over by foreigners," said the founder and chairman of Jarislowsky Fraser Ltd., which manages $60 billion in assets.
The Conservative government's appointment of a panel to asses Canada's competition policy and foreign investment is akin to closing the barn door after the best horses have run away, Jarislowsky said.
"Only the stupid horses are left," along with banks and companies that, for regulatory reasons, can't leave, he said.
Ken Wong, an associate professor at Queen's University's business school, said there are few takers for unprofitable, poorly-run businesses, so it's not surprising the best companies are being bought.
But while businesses are looking out for their own interests, someone should be considering the national good, particularly when resources or resource-dependent companies are concerned, he said.
"I would be looking for certain signs that tell me that the merger or acquisition will be good for the country, not just the company" or shareholders, Wong said.
Ottawa should ensure the long-term stewardship of resources is factored into the equation so that lost resources can be tabulated in much the same way lost jobs have been, he said.
The Rio Tinto offer, unveiled Thursday, would see Rio Tinto Alcan with a head office in Montreal but its chief executive officer would report to Rio Tinto's CEO. Rio Tinto currently has its key aluminum and aluminum-related assets and offices in Australia.
Rio Tinto Alcan would be "the new hub" of Rio's aluminum business, although investment in Australia "would not be diminished," Rio Tinto CEO Tom Albanese said at Thursday's press conference in Montreal. There would be some ebb and flow of employees between Montreal and Brisbane, Australia, but the employment levels in Montreal would remain as high, if not higher, he added.
Descriptions like that make Concordia University finance professor Lawrence Kryzanowski uneasy because they remind him of what was said as Montreal head offices moved west when the separatist movement was gaining strength in Quebec.
"It is clear when a company moves a head office; less clear is when a company moves key functions out," he said. "Smart companies will do that over time."
The Royal Bank of Canada, for example, contends that it maintains a head office in Montreal but its corporate headquarters is in Toronto.
"You can say you still have the head office here in Montreal but (what matters) is where the head office work is carried out. I would expect of lot of that to happen" with Rio Tinto Alcan, Kryzanowski said.
Alcan "probably arranged the best deal for shareholders ... and Montreal," given the circumstances, Kryzanowski, an Alcan shareholder, said.
The Rio Tinto Alcan office in Montreal "will be a divisional office at best," Jarislowsky said.
One thing that helped tie Alcan to Canada were agreements between it and the governments of B.C. and Quebec that were linked to long-term, low-cost energy supplies for the aluminum producer, Kryzanowski said.
"If it wasn't for the agreements they had in both Quebec and B.C., I think the head office would probably move," he said.
The Quebec deal, signed last December just before Alcan announced a $1.8-billion US investment in the Saguaenay, requires that Alcan maintain in Quebec "substantive operational, financial and strategic activities and headquarters ... at levels which are substantially similar to those of Alcan" at the signing of the agreement.
Now it's up to Quebec and other interested parties to "be vigilant" and ensure that the deal is honoured, Kryzanowski said.
Quebec will have to decide how best to measure Rio Tinto Alcan's presence in Quebec, based on what it most values, be it payroll numbers, new products
development or research-and-development money spent, Wong said.
Montreal Gazette
[email protected] |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by malek
Actually, once a company start a hostile takeover over another one, its hard to stop the ball. Alcoa started by an offer, and it was rejected by Alcan. But once the shares start soaring and other companies start lining up to offer more and more, its impossible for Alcan to stop it because shareholders want to cash in! |
Heaven forefend! Imagine, people being alowed to sell something that they own for something as meaningless as money. It's down right deplorable! Everyone should immediately and heretofor defer their self interest in favour of the best interest of the state and the state alone. Malek, I recommend that you take the lead on this one. |
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| malek |
Noooooo profits are good, but i believe you don't see the greater picture here.
I'm not a lefty or anything, i am just witnessing the erosion of Canadian ownership over our resources and top companies. |
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