|
Oh, about that reduction in Iraqi violence argument
|
View this Thread in Original format
| MisterOpus1 |
We've had a few posts here by our wonderful newbie, LatinLover, about how terrific the SURGE! has been and why it's gone so gosh darn well. I've argued in those threads about the fact that the primary issue of the SURGE! stated by our Administration was to clear the path for the political process and reconciliation in the Iraqi government to go forward.
That hasn't gone as planned, not by any stretch.
Nevertheless violence has gone down, and by both the darn librul media and the conservative blogs, it would appear that all is owed to the increase in troop levels. So they have all collectively swatted each other on the ass (it's not gay, Senator Craig, if you say "Good job!" after the swat), and felt so incredibly vindicated by the idea of the SURGE! that was created by a neocon warmongerer at the uber-neocon conservative think tank chairman, Fred Kagan of the American Enterprise Institute.
But there's something that our darn librul media and our conservative "friends" seemed to have overlooked. If we cast our minds back to the beginning of August, we see this article in the NYTimes that says this:
| quote: | Attacks on American-led forces using a lethal type of roadside bomb said to be supplied by Iran reached a new high in July, according to the American military.
The devices, known as explosively formed penetrators, were used to carry out 99 attacks last month and accounted for a third of the combat deaths suffered by the American-led forces, according to American military officials.
"July was an all-time high," Lt. Gen. Raymond T. Odierno, the No. 2 commander in Iraq, said in an interview, referring to strikes with such devices.
Such bombs, which fire a semi-molten copper slug that can penetrate the armor on a Humvee and are among the deadliest weapons used against American forces, are used almost exclusively by Shiite militants.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/08/w...08military.html
|
Now keep in mind that this was the deadliest summer in Iraq our troops have ever gone through. And those bombs were almost exclusively used by Shiite militias, the same militias according to that article that are members of al-Sadr’s Mahdi Army.
Three weeks later, it was reported that 50 Muslim pilgrims were slaughtered in the violence in Karbala. As a consequence, al-Sadr announced that he was going to suspend offensive operations for 6 months:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...30/wiraq130.xml
and it took everyone by surprise:
| quote: | The surprise statement regarding his notorious Mahdi army, which is responsible for much of Iraq's sectarian blood-letting, not only caught British and American commanders off-guard but appeared to have surprised Baghdad officials too. Mowaffak al-Rubbaie, Iraq's national security adviser, said Baghdad would only welcome the move if Sadr's lieutenants stop attacks and their attempts to "blow up" the Iraqi government.
"I will see on the ground what is going to happen," he said. "It is good news if it is true. If it happens it will reduce violence in the country a great deal." |
Then on September 15, our military stated how incredibly important this news was:
| quote: | "Muqtada al-Sadr's declaration holds the potential to reduce criminal activity and help reunite Iraqis separated by ethno-sectarian violence and fear," the U.S. military said.
::
An end to Mehdi Army "would also be an important step in helping Iraqi authorities focus greater attention on achieving the political and economic solutions necessary for progress and less on dealing with criminal activity, sectarian violence, kidnappings, assassinations, and attacks on Iraqi and coalition forces," the military said.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast...main/index.html |
From then on, the numbers of troop deaths began to decrease fast, from 84 in August, to 65 in September, and last month down to 38. Our military argued for months on end about the Iranian-supplied Shia fighters were the most serious threat to the U.S. forces, and now that threat stopped fighting on its own.
Then just a few days back, the WaPost had this to say:
| quote: | The number of explosively formed projectiles (EFPs) that have been detonated or found in Iraq has dropped by nearly half in recent months, from a peak of 99 in July to 53 last month, Lt. Gen. Raymond T. Odierno, the commander in charge of day-to-day military operations in Iraq, said yesterday in a vihttp://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/2007/11/mccain-in-south.htmldeoconference with Pentagon reporters.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...7110102362.html |
But of course that's not what the neocons and Bushies tell. Instead, they give the credit to something else altogether:
No mention about our biggest threat quitting on their own.
And of course our dumb president had this spin down as well:
| quote: | At the graduation ceremony, the president said that since the troop increase reached full strength in June, the number of roadside bombs had been cut by half. He said U.S. military deaths were at their lowest in 19 months.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...ack=1&cset=true |
Again with no mention of al-Sadr's army manning down on its own accord.
So can we attribute ALL reductions of troop deaths to the SURGE!? Can we honestly attribute ANY reductions of troop deaths given the fact that our enemy stepped down all on it's own?
And what will happen when al-Sadr decides to start back up again? What will happen when we are forced to redeploy the SURGE! troops because their 15 month tours are coming to an end? Oh, I'm sure Bush will think of something clever, right? |
|
|
| pkcRAISTLIN |
| way to go ruining my cautious optimism opus :( |
|
|
| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
way to go ruining my cautious optimism opus :( |
he's not trying to affect your optimism he's trying to spin the onus.
it's a strawman to even think that "all" or "most" violence in Iraq is caused by one group or one tactic. |
|
|
| MisterOpus1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
he's not trying to affect your optimism he's trying to spin the onus.
it's a strawman to even think that "all" or "most" violence in Iraq is caused by one group or one tactic. |
Okay, then do you support this president and his various conservative mouthpieces/writers/bloggers who trump up the SURGE! being the exclusive result of our troop numbers with narry a mention of al-Sadr's army backing down on its own?
Because you really can't have that argument both ways. |
|
|
| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
he's not trying to affect your optimism he's trying to spin the onus.
it's a strawman to even think that "all" or "most" violence in Iraq is caused by one group or one tactic. |
well, i for one went nuts reading all kinds of different sources regarding the death statistics as well as osama's complaint that some of those in iraq need to forget their tribal loyalties.
i never came across anything re opus' post. for realisms sake, it should certainly be included in the overall discussion, and not omitted to give an illusory picture of the surge's success. |
|
|
| LatinLover |
MissOctopus1,
You have revealed your true colors! Its obvious you are an anti-american that questions and blindly denies the progress being made on the ground. Its obious that you favor and are rooting for the resistance and you hope that America fails in Iraq. It bothers you that finally we are in the right track. IT disgusts me that you have this type of mentality... it sad that you try to prove a political point instead of the well being of America... let me ask you Miss what have you done for this country? Have you ever volunteered in our arm forces? What have you done to make this country a better place? From the mentality that you have is the reason why we have idiots like Timothy mcveigh |
|
|
| eROs.au |
| quote: | Originally posted by LatinLover
MissOctopus1,
You have revealed your true colors! Its obvious you are an anti-american |
:stongue: |
|
|
| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by LatinLover
MissOctopus1,
You have revealed your true colors! Its obvious you are an anti-american that questions and blindly denies the progress being made on the ground. Its obious that you favor and are rooting for the resistance and you hope that America fails in Iraq. It bothers you that finally we are in the right track. IT disgusts me that you have this type of mentality... it sad that you try to prove a political point instead of the well being of America... let me ask you Miss what have you done for this country? Have you ever volunteered in our arm forces? What have you done to make this country a better place? From the mentality that you have is the reason why we have idiots like Timothy mcveigh |
opus is one of the brightest and conscientious posters we have you tool :rolleyes: |
|
|
| LatinLover |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
opus is one of the brightest and conscientious posters we have you tool :rolleyes: |
You call him bright? :haha: Hey if thats the case Im going to tell my neighbors dog to start posting here. Trust me he wont be bright... the dog will be a genius if Opus is bright |
|
|
| MisterOpus1 |
Latin, I find it cute how you try so hard to derail a thread that undermines your Bush-supporting arguments (arguments that you never support yourself). I'm going to take the bait just this once, just so I can get a few things off my chest. Enjoy the derailment while you can. Rest assured it won't happen again.
With that said, off we go:
[rant]
| quote: | Originally posted by LatinLover
MissOctopus1,
You have revealed your true colors! Its obvious you are an anti-american that questions and blindly denies the progress being made on the ground. |
Did I say you can come upstairs?
It's little s like you that have no business calling people like myself "anti-American" when you blindly follow in lockstep with your idiot President.
Just a little bit of analysis outside your narrow scope of view, just one ounce of it and you jump with your stupid ing "anti-American" slander.
Seriously, are you even an American yourself? It's obvious that you refuse to even support your President and his war cause by refusing to join up with the military and fight for that cause.
But you want anyone here to actually take your troll-like posts seriously? Then do us a favor for once in your ing life and attack the merits of the argument, rather than your stupid ad hominem attacks at the poster.
You're beyond tedious and pathetic.
| quote: | | Its obious that you favor and are rooting for the resistance and you hope that America fails in Iraq. |
Seriously, troll, off. I call our policies out with evidence to support my arguments. I root for America and the ground we stand on far more than your stupid ing little immature ass could ever fathom.
Get an argument. Get a life. off. Simple.
| quote: | | It bothers you that finally we are in the right track. |
It bothers me that overly-simplistic idiots like you ignore the argument I posed and attack me personally. What the hell is your purpose here again?
| quote: | | IT disgusts me that you have this type of mentality... |
Seriously, off. Join your cause, if you're even an American, or shut your ing hypocritical ass up. I've got dried-up, crumpled s in my Depends diaper that utilize arguments better than you.
| quote: | | it sad that you try to prove a political point instead of the well being of America... |
Don't you even ing talk about America, you mindless twit. You have no comprehension what it means to be an American, let alone point your little 8th grade finger at others in accusation.
I disagree with this president's policies strongly. I support my arguments with evidence.
I disagree with the rhetoric of this president and his followers strongly. I support my arguments against him and them with evidence.
You've got nothing to offer to counter that. Not ever. Not one ing time have you offered anything worthwhile you little ing 19-year old troll.
| quote: | | let me ask you Miss what have you done for this country? Have you ever volunteered in our arm forces? |
Why would I volunteer for a war cause I do not agree with dumbass? Does that thought ever occur to you?
| quote: | | What have you done to make this country a better place? |
Quite a lot, actually. But my volunteer time, money, and profession are not germane to this discussion, are they?
Or are you saying that the only thing that's good for this country is to join the military, something that you little chickenhawk chickens refuse to even bother doing?
| quote: | | From the mentality that you have is the reason why we have idiots like Timothy mcveigh |
Seriously, back downstairs you ing troll. You offer nothing worthwhile to this post, this forum, or this space on earth.
[/rant] |
|
|
| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
|
Great post. I've wondered the same thing - how the drawback of Shia forces in Iraq got no media attention even as casualties have apparently gone down. Thanks for connecting the dots here.
| quote: | Originally posted by LatinLover
MissOctopus1, |
Latin, your credibility is waning with these kinds of posts...
| quote: | | You have revealed your true colors! Its obvious you are an anti-american that questions and blindly denies the progress being made on the ground. |
He never "denied progress being made on the ground" - quite the opposite, he acknowledged it and then questioned the reason why progress is being made. It's a frankly pre-Enlightenment mentality to never question the reasons things happen.
| quote: | | Its obious that you favor and are rooting for the resistance and you hope that America fails in Iraq. It bothers you that finally we are in the right track. IT disgusts me that you have this type of mentality... it sad that you try to prove a political point instead of the well being of America... |
I really fail to understand how you infer such things. If someone is critical of United States policy they are suddenly an enemy of the entire country? Whatever happened to freedom to exchange political ideas, L? That's what America actually stands for - if you really support America you would support the ability to question whether the status quo is really the best we can do. In my humble opinion, the United States is far from perfect, and anyone who argues otherwise is impeding our ability to focus on becoming a more perfect union.
| quote: |
let me ask you Miss what have you done for this country? Have you ever volunteered in our arm forces? What have you done to make this country a better place? |
Hardly even relevant, don't you think? Questioning someone's personal contributions to society on an online forum? For someone who has refused to answer any questions about your own personal life assertions, that is a fine line to tread between fair criticism and blatant hypocrisy.
| quote: |
From the mentality that you have is the reason why we have idiots like Timothy mcveigh |
And there goes the last shred of your credibility. Using the name of a right-wing nutjob to slander someone you think is liberal, all because you happen to disagree on the best direction for United States foreign policy? Gain some perspective man. You could contribute to these forums if you stick to argumentation and refrained from posts devoid of anything intellectual whatsoever. No one cares what you think personally of Opus or anyone else. We care what you think about issues, and for whatever reason, you smugly refuse to engage in a real debate about anything. I was one of the people that defended you when things came to a head last month, but I am beginning to regret having stood up for you. You won't win any arguments here by slandering anyone who disagrees with you. And using the word "liberal" as a derogatory term wins as much respect as using "neo-con" or "Nazi" with the same intention. |
|
|
| LatinLover |
I touched your nerve didnt I? You have lost your nerves because I hit the truth in this forum in exposing you.
I repeat, it is clear of your Anti-American sentiments in this forum. For all those people that havent put the puzzle together on you Opus,Im going to do it. It is clear that you are in the side of the terrorists, you basically are the speaker of the anti- american voice. your function is basically to discredit any progressive information to help spread the anti american propaganda so it can benefit all the followers of the resistance. You are a disgrace to this country... and im warning you If i was your neighbor I would keep an eye of you. I hope you dont do any stupid , you hatred towards our troops is visible. You question their will to win, and instead of cheering for them to continue on the right track you come and discredit them. Shame on you! What made you turn against this country Opus? Why are you spreading propaganda of the harm these terrorist are doing to the iraqi people and our troops.
I repeat, stop aiding the terrorist in aiding them with their propaganda. We should report you do the department of homeland security before you do antyhing stupid |
|
|
|
|
