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Hugo Threatens to cut oil supply to the US (pg. 4)
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Say the man from the country who's President was originally the weakest institution and is now the Emperor? |
Emperor, riiiiight. this emperor youre talking about happens to also be a "lame duck" and the only reason he's getting anything done in government is the fact that he continues to be underestimated and is dealing with a grossly incompetent and misguided Legislative opposition. anyways, thats irrelevant and keep the Bush Deraingement talking points to a minimum please. at least in this thread.
| quote: | | Every political system has undergone change and evolution. |
and you'd be correct in believing that every politicl system continues to undergo change and evolution. then why aren't you advocating term limits?
absolutely 100% agree that politics is never static. and in that same vein, what truly amazes me is such a staunch and coherent defender of democracy, socialist or otherwise, and a left-of-center advocate such as yourself would not question a man like Chavez's intentions of procuring and increasing power. how in the hell is that at all democratic aside from the fact that he let his electorate decide? (lets not even discuss how exactly he set the table for it with his scare tactics and threats towards opposition)
you should at least be able to agree that what stronger ideals of democracy prevailed here and not the ideals you were defending. |
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| George Smiley |
Term limits are nothing. They are a none issue. It works both for Chavez and for the opposititon. It's like someone saying they lost a football match because of the weather, well both sides had to play in those conditions!
The democracy issue is how they many hold on to power. In Venezuela they (Chavez) has had fair and free elections, confirmed by international observers (which is more than can be said for Russia right now). This referendum was free and fair and if Chavez was who you accuse him of he would not have conceded defeat. For all you know these reforms could put the totalitarian opposition in power for the next 50 years (then we'd see how democracy was systematically destroyed...) |
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| Q5echo |
| it's very simple. he underestimated the political savvy of the proletariat not to see just exactly what he was doing. |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
For all you know these reforms could put the totalitarian opposition in power for the next 50 years (then we'd see how democracy was systematically destroyed...) |
well, it's not going to happen by changing the Contitution thats for sure. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
well, it's not going to happen by changing the Contitution thats for sure. |
Why? |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Term limits are nothing. |
it could be argued a true democracy depends on them.
in this case though, Chavez was seeking to extend his powers in government setting the stage for marginalizing opposition and increasing his political influence in addition to leaving the option open for unlimited terms.
that, surely isn't true democracy. that, is nothing worth defending , whether he put it to vote or not. that is why the people spoke. |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Why? |
if nothing gets done to help the poor and tackle the major issues between now and 2012 the people will find someone else that will. they've demostrated their willingness to give Chavez a chance but will not go along with changing the Constitution to do it. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
if nothing gets done to help the poor and tackle the major issues between now and 2012 the people will find someone else that will. they've demostrated their willingness to give Chavez a chance but will not go along with changing the Constitution to do it. |
That's what I said. Glad you agree that these reforms would have just as much effect on the opposition's prospects of gaining power for a long time as Chavez's prospects. It works both ways because the laws apply equally to everyone. Chavez has been the most democratic leader in Venezuela's history, a fact you cannot deny, and the way he handled this referendum defeat shows just how committed he is to democracy - something that cannot be said for the opposition |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
it could be argued a true democracy depends on them. |
No it couldn't. It could, however, be argued that an American ignorant of any alternative political system might make such a comment tho...
| quote: | in this case though, Chavez was seeking to extend his powers in government setting the stage for marginalizing opposition and increasing his political influence in addition to leaving the option open for unlimited terms.
that, surely isn't true democracy. that, is nothing worth defending , whether he put it to vote or not. that is why the people spoke. |
How was he marginalising the opposition? By limitting the amount of campaigning they can do from 44 hours per week to 36 hours per week?! :D |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Will Defeat Alter Chávez's Path?
Venezuela Leader's Failure
To Cement Power Expected
To Embolden Opposition
By JOSÉ DE CÓRDOBA and JOHN LYONS
December 4, 2007; Page A4
CARACAS, Venezuela -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez's defeat in a referendum on changing the country's constitution will energize the nation's opposition, but the leader is likely to continue his quest to remain in power and turn the country into a bastion of what he calls 21st-century socialism.
[AP]1
AP
Mr. Chávez held a copy of the national current constitution (right) and a copy of the defeated proposal during his televised speech.
Mr. Chávez's defeat in Sunday's vote shows a growing impatience among Venezuelans, including surprising numbers of Mr. Chávez's supporters, about his inability to substantially improve their lives, despite near-record-high oil prices and the fact that he has governed the country for nearly a decade. Mr. Chávez sought to amend the constitution of the world's ninth-largest oil producer to allow him to concentrate nearly all power, including scrapping limits on re-election.
Mr. Chávez's defeat will ripple across Latin America, hurting allies in countries like Bolivia and Ecuador and boosting moderates in Brazil and Chile. For the U.S. and Europe, a weaker Mr. Chávez is welcome news. The former military officer has been increasingly hostile to Western interests in the past few years, nationalizing key areas of the economy like the oil industry, telecommunications and utilities.
Despite the result, Mr. Chávez will remain a major force. He still enjoys a deep reservoir of support among the country's majority poor and working class. He controls the country's courts, most of its media, the congress and almost all local and state governments. He is also a recognized comeback king. In 2002, he was knocked out of power for two days but came back. And in 1998, only four years after being released from prison for his unsuccessful 1992 coup attempt, Mr. Chávez was elected president of Venezuela for the first time.
"He is wounded, but he's still very dangerous," says Fernando Ochoa, a former defense minister. Now that the constitutional referendum has failed, Mr. Ochoa warns that Mr. Chávez may try to keep pushing his agenda, perhaps by calling for a constitutional convention.
[Hugo Chavez]
The main lesson for Mr. Chávez from the vote could be that he needs to focus on issues of popular concern such as the economy and crime. His ideas about so-called 21st-century socialism and performances on the international stage, including his gibes at President Bush, didn't help him much with voters.
"People are tired of his bombast after nine years of nearly constant mobilization," says Peter Hakim, president of the Inter-American Dialogue, a Washington think tank. "His magic and charm are wearing thin next to the still poor quality of government services."
Mr. Chávez has used oil money to direct billions of dollars in health and food subsidies. The spending has created make-work jobs and put money in people's pockets, but other economic policies like price controls have backfired. Basics like rice, sugar, milk and chicken are sometimes hard to find in a country where the economy is booming from oil wealth.
Crime is another problem area. While Mr. Chávez gives Venezuela's oil money to allies around Latin America, violent crime is rising in Venezuela's cities. The poor -- Mr. Chávez's base -- suffer the most because the rich insulate themselves behind bodyguards and high walls.
The outcome of the vote shows that Mr. Chávez is more out of touch with his supporter base than his man-of-the-people image would suggest.
Venezuelans rejected President Hugo Chavez's bid to win new powers for re-election. Video courtesy of Reuters.
Mr. Chávez had predicted a 10-percentage-point victory in the referendum and was seemingly unaware that many of his supporters could defect. One explanation is a heavy travel schedule that leaves him less time for domestic affairs. Another is the isolation that comes with power.
"Strongmen often surround themselves with sycophants who tell them what they want to hear," said Riordan Roett, director of Western Hemisphere Studies at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore. "They get carried away by the soothing tones of their advisers."
It remains to be seen whether Mr. Chávez, whose political style has been one of confrontation rather than conciliation, will heed the wake-up call he has received. If he doesn't, Venezuela could face unrest as Mr. Chávez's emboldened opposition presses for more space.
Jerrold Post, the head of George Washington University's Political Psychology Program, recently completed a psychological study of Mr. Chávez for the U.S. Air Force. Mr. Chávez, says Dr. Post, is "immensely narcissistic" and "enormously self-absorbed."
Mr. Chávez's defeat should give succor to his opponents. One of the biggest challenges for the middle- and upper-class leaders of the opposition parties will be figuring out how to cross class lines and compete for the votes of disillusioned Chávez supporters in working-class neighborhoods. While many of these voters opposed the referendum, they also have a deep mistrust of Venezuelan elites who governed the country for generations. |
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| venomX |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
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I think this problem is a bit widespread in Latin America. Chavez like demagogues pop up so often because middle-class (if it exists in LA) and upper class leaders have no clue on how to appeal to the lower classes (which have larger numbers). The only reason you get Chavez's, Morales' and other like them is because other more qualified leaders are clueless or don't care about the poorer masses. It really is a tricky issue. |
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| ams.rld |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
In Venezuela they (Chavez) has had fair and free elections, confirmed by international observers (which is more than can be said for Russia right now). |
If you knew anything about what is going on in Russia you would know it was fair. Most non-westeners found the elections fair and the westerners only found the elections unfair because they are paranoid of Putin's Russia and the USSR similarities. |
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