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oops. how bad did Obama mess up? (pg. 9)
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
do you really think that even if susan rice becomes the secretary of state she will actually do much for africa? From the little i've read about her it seems her positions were specifically africa related. As secretary of state she would be responsible for US relations with every country. As far as US relations, Africa is about the least important of all continents. Simply based on a scale of importance, even if she has personal interests in africa, those interests would be sidelined for the interests of the US.
I'm just curious (since we all know how important africa is for you), when you evaluate the candidates, how important is this issue for you compared to other issues? |
It's very important to me. Africa is an emerging market, as well as a security concern in a more globalized world - take a look at the latest 2006 National Security Strategy to see that even this Administration recognizes that. Africa is also home to 40% of all global poverty and 50% of global conflict... that's something I think America should be actively seized of. A stable Africa will be more profitable, both for Africans and the people doing business with them.
Under this Administration, as you imply, Africa has been largely ignored. Which is the greatest reason as to why China is now the number one donor on the continent. In the 1980's the United States had its foot on the throat of the Sudanese government. Now we're irrelevant to the point of not being able to do anything to stop their funding of the janjaweed. I'd like to see our next President show some moral backbone and not abandon the continent for oil concessions in the Middle East. Ignoring Africa is dangerous in my opinion. Despite it's poverty, it is the fastest growing market in the world, and one of the places in which anti-Americanism is beginning to spread most rapidly. We're already seeing radical Islam take root in places like Senegal, Nigeria, and Sudan. If the United States got serious about combating African conflicts and engaging with states on development issues (god, if we would only stick to NEPAD!) a lot of good could be done, fifty-four growing economic partners could be gained, and stability could be reasserted on a continent that has lacked it for forty years.
Look, Obama and Hillary have virtually the same policy towards Europe, and towards the Middle East and Iraq. They vary in nuance, yes, but there aren't very many practical differences. Where they vary is that Obama addresses more than the Middle East and Europe. He represents a possible American presidency that is engaged with the whole world, not just the places where we have immediate economic and resource interests. Isn't that preferable? I'm not sure I understand your criticism on this issue.
As to Susan Rice, she was Undersecretary of State for African Affairs under Clinton, so Africa is where she sharpened her teeth. But she's well-versed in American interests elsewhere as well - which is why she's the campaign's point person on Iraq and Afghanistan/Pakistan. The point is that she won't be ignorant of African issues, and will take a real interest in addressing them. It's not like she will spend all of her time on Africa, but she just might put it back on the front burner where it belongs. I think having an Africanist in a position of power is certainly more appealing than the current Dr. Rice, who taught Soviet Cold War politics at Stanford... which is more relevant in today's world? |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
I'm not sure I understand your criticism on this issue. |
i have no objections to your position; it's reasonable and responsible. i just wanted some elaboration. admittedly though, africa and to a large extent many foreign policy issues are pretty low on my list of important issues. I am more concerned with
(1) our country's increasing uncompetitive corporate tax scheme,
(2) our inability to effectively assist in the development and implementation of sustainable alternative energy systems,
(3) the huge government debt and policy of overspending (especially on military),
(4) the trade imbalance, and
(5) our governments policy of meddling in the affairs of foreign governments.
i think if our country adopted more effective plans for fostering the creation of alternative energy systems (i.e., tax credits, grants, pollution caps, fines for polluters, etc...) then many of our foreign policy issues would move closer to being resolved because our need for petroleum would be reduced. we could then re-allocate our resources to more noble goals. |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
i have no objections to your position; it's reasonable and responsible. i just wanted some elaboration. admittedly though, africa and to a large extent many foreign policy issues are pretty low on my list of important issues. I am more concerned with
(1) our country's increasing uncompetitive corporate tax scheme,
(2) our inability to effectively assist in the development and implementation of sustainable alternative energy systems,
(3) the huge government debt and policy of overspending (especially on military),
(4) the trade imbalance, and
(5) our governments policy of meddling in the affairs of foreign governments.
i think if our country adopted more effective plans for fostering the creation of alternative energy systems (i.e., tax credits, grants, pollution caps, fines for polluters, etc...) then many of our foreign policy issues would move closer to being resolved because our need for petroleum would be reduced. we could then re-allocate our resources to more noble goals. |
Oh, I think domestic issues are plenty important as well - but where I see the distinction between the two democratic candidates this year is foreign policy. Education is my number one domestic issue, but at the end of the day either Hillary or Barack is going to do more for public education than a McCain presidency would. |
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| hardcore trancer |
I know everyone is thinking that this election will either be won by Hillary or Obama but we all know what happend in 2004 elections and Bush got re-elected again and everyone was shocked by it and couldnt believe how the American people would possibly want him re-elected again.
My question is what the exact same happens this time around and John Mccain wins it? will this be shocking to you all? and what should we expect from him?.I know he is not a Neocon in heart but that can always change and also depending on who will be part of his administration.
I have a feeling Mccain will start playing the fear games all over again and maybe even more the Bush and the Americans will fall for it once again.:( |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
I know everyone is thinking that this election will either be won by Hillary or Obama but we all know what happend in 2004 elections and Bush got re-elected again and everyone was shocked by it and couldnt believe how the American people would possibly want him re-elected again.
My question is what the exact same happens this time around and John Mccain wins it? will this be shocking to you all? and what should we expect from him?.I know he is not a Neocon in heart but that can always change and also depending on who will be part of his administration.
I have a feeling Mccain will start playing the fear games all over again and maybe even more the Bush and the Americans will fall for it once again.:( |
I don't think another Republican, McCain specifically, will make it to office, weather his strategy is legal or under handed. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Okay, ummm, if we could step away from the bonermen/freemason conspiracy club digression for a moment and come back to topic |
Did you forget to wear your tin foil hat today? :nervous: |
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| Zild |
| I thought we were at the point where we've realized that bonesmen and freemason aren't a conspiracy. Yes some of them conspire together at the highest levels, which is only natural, but these groups and certain public figure's memberships in them is entirely factual. |
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| shaolin_Z |
Here's some more 'coincidental' facts:
GEORGE WASHINGTON (1732-1799)
First President (1789-1797)
MASONIC RECORD
Initiated: November 4, 1752, Fredericksburgh (Fredericksburg) Lodge No. 4, Fredericksburg, Virginia.
Brother Washington became Worshipful Master on December 20, 1788, and was inaugurated President of the United States on April 30, 1789, thus becoming the first, and so far the only, Brother to be simultaneously President and Master of his Lodge.
THOMAS JEFFERSON (1743-1826)
Third President (1801-1809)
Unconfirmed Lodge Membership: Charlottesville Lodge No. 90, Charlottesville, Va.
JAMES MONROE (1758-1831)
Fifth President (1817-1825)
MASONIC RECORD
(Lodge records lost) Initiated: November 9, 1775, St. John's Regimental Lodge in the Continental Army. Monroe was not yet eighteen, but "lawful age" had not yet been universally fixed at twenty-one. Later, Brother Monroe took Membership in Williamsburg Lodge No. 6, Williamsburg, Virginia.
ANDREW JACKSON (1767-1845)
Seventh President (1829-1837)
MASONIC RECORD
(Lodge records lost) Initiated: The record for Brother Jackson has not been located. He seems to have been a Member of St. Tammany Lodge No. 1, Nashville, Tennessee, as early as 1800. It was the first Lodge in Tennessee, organized in 1789, under a Dispensation from the Grand Lodge of North Carolina. The name was later changed to Harmony Lodge No. 1 on November 1, 1800. Brother Jackson is officially listed as a Member in the Lodge Return to the Grand Lodge of North Carolina and Tennessee for 1805. On December 27, 1813, the Grand Lodge of Tennessee was granted its own Constitution. Brother Jackson was the sixth Grand Master of Masons of Tennessee, serving from October 7, 1822 until October 4, 1824.
JAMES KNOX POLK (1795-1849)
Eleventh President (1845-1849)
MASONIC RECORD
Initiated: June 5, 1820, Columbia Lodge No. 31, Columbia, Tennessee. Brother Polk assisted in the Cornerstone Laying of the Smithsonian Institution, Washington, D.C., May 1, 1847.
Governor of Tennessee 1839-1841.
JAMES BUCHANAN (1791-1868)
Fifteenth President (1857-1861)
MASONIC RECORD
Initiated: December 1l, 1816, Lodge No. 43, Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Brother Buchanan became Worshipful Master of Lodge No. 43 1822-1823; and in 1824 was appointed District Deputy Grand Master for the Counties of Lancaster, Lebanon and York.
ANDREW JOHNSON (1808-1875)
Seventeenth President (1865-1869)
MASONIC RECORD
(Lodge records lost during the Civil War) Initiated: May 5, 1851, Greenville Lodge No. 119, Greenville, Tennessee.
Military Governor of Tennessee, 1862-1865.
JAMES ABRAM GARFIELD (1831-1881)
Twentieth President (July 2 - September 19, 1881)
MASONIC RECORD
Initiated: November 19, 1861, Magnolia Lodge, No. 20, Columbus, Ohio. Owing to Civil War duties, Brother Garfield did not receive the Third Degree until November 22, 1864 in Columbus Lodge No. 30, Columbus, Ohio. On October 10, 1866, he Affiliated with Garrettsville Lodge No. 246, Garrettsville, Ohio, serving as its Chaplain in 1868-1869. Brother Garfield then became a Charter Member of Pentalpha Lodge No. 23 of Washington, D.C. on May 4, 1869; in fact, he was one of the Petitioners for the Lodge Charter.
WILLIAM McKINLEY (1843-1901)
Twenty-fifth President (1897-1901)
MASONIC RECORD
Initiated: May 1, 1865, Hiram Lodge No. 21, Winchester, Virginia. Brother McKinley Affiliated with Canton Lodge No. 60, Canton, Ohio on August 21, 1867; and Demitted from same to become a Charter Member of Eagle Lodge No. 431, also in Canton. Following Brother McKinley's death on September 14, 1901, the name was changed to William McKinley Lodge effective October 24, 1901.
Governor of Ohio, 1892-1896.
THEODORE ROOSEVELT (1858-1919)
Twenty-sixth President (1901-1909)
MASONIC RECORD
Initiated: January 2, 1901, MatineLodge No. 806, Oyster Bay, New York. Brother and President Roosevelt visited the Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania (in its present home, the Masonic Temple at One North Broad Street) on November 5, 1902, for the Celebration of the Sesqui-Centennial of Brother George Washington's Initiation into Freemasonry. Governor of New York, 1899-1901. Brother and President Roosevelt issued an Executive Order, dated, October 17, 1901 changing the name of the "Executive Mansion" to the "White House".
WILLIAM HOWARD TAFT (1857-1930)
Twenty-seventh President (1909-1913)
MASONIC RECORD
Initiated: February 18, 1909. Brother Taft was made a "Mason at Sight" within the Body of Kilwinning Lodge No. 356, Cincinnati, Ohio, by Grand Master Charles S. Hoskinson. His father and two brothers were also Members of this Lodge. Brother and President Taft addressed the Brethren, saying, "I am glad to be here, and to be a Mason. It does me good to feel the thrill that comes from recognizing on all hands the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Man." Brother and President Taft visited the Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania on the occasion of a Special Communication held in the Masonic Temple (One North Broad Street), on March 12, 1912.
WARREN GAMALIEL HARDING (1865-1923)
Twenty-ninth President (1921-1923)
MASONIC RECORD
Initiated: June 28, 1901, Marion Lodge No. 70, Marion, Ohio. Because of some personal antagonism, Brother Harding's advancement was hindered until 1920, by which time he had been nominated for President. Friends persuaded the opposition to withdraw the objection, and on August 27, 1920, nineteen years after his Initiation, Brother Harding achieved the Sublime Degree of Master Mason, in Marion Lodge. At his request, Brother Harding took the Oath of Office of President of the United States upon the same Bible as was used by Brother George Washington for the same purpose on April 30, 1789 (the Altar Bible of St. John's Lodge No. 1, New York City).
FRANKLIN DELANO ROOSEVELT (1882-1945)
Thirty-second President (1933-1945)
MASONIC RECORD
Initiated: October 11, 1911, Holland Lodge No. 8, New York City. Brother Roosevelt participated in the Raising of his son Elliott (1910-1990) on February 17, 1933, in Architect's Lodge No. 519, also in New York City. He was present, but did not participate in the Degrees when two other sons, James (1907-1991) and Franklin D., Jr. (1914-1988) became Members of their brother Elliott's Lodge, on November 7, 1935. Brother and President Roosevelt was made the first Honorary Grand Master of the Order of DeMolay on April 13, 1934 at the White House.
Governor of New York, 1929-1933.
HARRY S TRUMAN (1884-1972)
Thirty-third President (1945-1952
MASONIC RECORD
Initiated: February 9, 1909, Belton Lodge No. 450, Belton, Missouri. In 1911, several Members of Belton Lodge separated to establish Grandview Lodge No. 618, Grandview, Missouri, and Brother Truman served as its first Worshipful Master. At the Annual Session of the Grand Lodge of Missouri, September 24-25, 1940, Brother Truman was elected (by a landslide) the ninety-seventh Grand Master of Masons of Missouri, and served until October 1, 1941. Brother and President Truman was made a Sovereign Grand Inspector General, 33°, and Honorary Member, Supreme Council on October 19,1945 at the Supreme Council A.A.S.R. Southern Jurisdiction Headquarters in Washington D.C., upon which occasion he served as Exemplar (Representative) for his Class. He was also elected an Honorary Grand Master of the International Supreme Council, Order of DeMolay. On May 18, 1959, Brother and Former President Truman was presented with a fifty-year award, the only U.S. President to reach that golden anniversary in Freemasonry.
GERALD RUDOLPH FORD(1913-2006)
Thirty-eighth President (1974-1977)
MASONIC RECORD
Initiated: September 30, 1949, Malta Lodge No. 465, Grand Rapids, Michigan, along with his half-brothers Thomas Gardner Ford (1918-1995), Richard Addison Ford (1924-) and James Francis Ford (1927- ). The Fellowcraft and Master Mason Degrees were Conferred by Columbia Lodge No. 3, Washington, D.C., on April 20 and May 18, 1951, as a courtesy to Malta Lodge. Brother Ford was made a Sovereign Grand Inspector General, 33°, and Honorary Member, Supreme Council A.A.S.R. Northern Jurisdiction at the Academy of Music in Philadelphia, on September 26, 1962, for which he served as Exemplar (Representative) for his Class. Brother and President Ford was unanimously elected an Active Member of the International Supreme Council, Order of DeMolay and its Honorary Grand Master, at its Annual Session held at Orlando, Florida, April 6-9, 1975; Brother Ford held this post until January 1977, at which time he became a Past Honorary Grand Master, receiving his Collar and Jewel on October 24, 1978 in Topeka, Kansas, from the Hon. Thomas C. Raum, Jr., Grand Master, Order of DeMolay.
LYNDON BAINES JOHNSON (1908-1973)
Thirty-sixth President (1974-1977)
Initiated: October 30, 1937, Johnson City Lodge No. 561, Johnson City, Texas. Entered Apprentice degree, did not advance.
There's more but I haven't been able to verify those with masonic sources so I refrain from posting them. |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
I know everyone is thinking that this election will either be won by Hillary or Obama but we all know what happend in 2004 elections and Bush got re-elected again and everyone was shocked by it and couldnt believe how the American people would possibly want him re-elected again.
My question is what the exact same happens this time around and John Mccain wins it? will this be shocking to you all? and what should we expect from him?.I know he is not a Neocon in heart but that can always change and also depending on who will be part of his administration.
I have a feeling Mccain will start playing the fear games all over again and maybe even more the Bush and the Americans will fall for it once again.:( |
John Kerry was a very weak candidate and did nothing to energize the democratic base. I still blame him more than anything the Republicans did in 2004. And I think the US has reached something of a critical mass with the politics of fear - one reason the Obama candidacy has had so much traction among independents. Obama, unlike Kerry, has proven willing to call fear-mongering for what it is. |
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| {b.s.e.} |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
John Kerry was a very weak candidate and did nothing to energize the democratic base. I still blame him more than anything the Republicans did in 2004. And I think the US has reached something of a critical mass with the politics of fear - one reason the Obama candidacy has had so much traction among independents. Obama, unlike Kerry, has proven willing to call fear-mongering for what it is. |
Kerry is a Bonesman. I wouldn't be surprised if he was a patsy for Bush's re-election. But I'm pretty cynical, and nothing surprises me. |
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| DJ Eco |
| It's another example of him ing up and then him coming back on TV telling us that we didn't "understand him the right way"... He needs to explain to us what he said, we misconstrued it. It has happened hundreds of times it seems... Ugh, our candidates suck. |
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| DJ Eco |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
John Kerry was a very weak candidate and did nothing to energize the democratic base. I still blame him more than anything the Republicans did in 2004. And I think the US has reached something of a critical mass with the politics of fear - one reason the Obama candidacy has had so much traction among independents. Obama, unlike Kerry, has proven willing to call fear-mongering for what it is. |
Kerry's one of Obama's main campaign advisors and supporters. He's living vicariously through Obama, it seems. |
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