Originally posted by Vortex_SA
for a person who happens to be also a composer i beg to differ... melodies at general are not so hard to compose, the main thing that interest me the most in trance is the complex rhythm and the overall sounds that gives sinc illusions, the overall feeling that trance gives me i cant get nowhere else... and im listening to music all the time... muse, incubus, pink floyd, bach, choppin... whatever...
and i heard at some place something i think is quite true.. in tribes from africa and asia there are rituals, those rituals combine drumming and dancing to reach apipheny, they make a repetetive drumming and dances till they "see the light"... with no drugs btw...
sounds familiar? i belive so...
"Melodies are not so hard to compose" is like saying "music is not so hard to compose". It absolutely makes no sense or whatsoever!
Furthermore, the fact that specific rhythms have trance-inducing properties don't make them superior to melody.In fact, small repeatetive melodies would have the same effect. Its not rhtyhms per se that do that, its the repetition + the properties of the human brain that do the trick.
Vortex_SA
quote:
Originally posted by nefardec
this informal, primitive ecstatic state, achieved through rhythmic repetition and repetitive rhythm and physical exhortation is a much greater ecstasy than that which is provided by western classical music.
A comparison between the western classical tradition and this sort of native spiritual communion could be the difference between something like Chartres Cathedral and sitting under a clear blue sky (a native american sacred place for example). To me the sort of hyper-articulation found in gothic architecture is distracting and illusory...
man... i didnt understand your point... sorry my english is not that good :)
PETRAN
quote:
Originally posted by nefardec
this informal, primitive ecstatic state, achieved through rhythmic repetition and repetitive rhythm and physical exhortation is a much greater ecstasy than that which is provided by western classical music.
A comparison between the western classical tradition and this sort of native spiritual communion could be the difference between something like Chartres Cathedral and sitting under a clear blue sky (a native american sacred place for example). To me the sort of hyper-articulation found in gothic architecture is distracting and illusory...
Oh please, send me the results of your "ecstatico-meter" to convince me...lol.
It seems that you didn't read my long post...:p
sljiva
quote:
Originally posted by PETRAN
Yes, it DOES matter what else are you listening to. Don't you still get it people? The human mind judges ALL things by comparison not in isolation. This is how relativity arises. There is no objective truth in preferences because taste derives from subjective first-person comparisons. This is true in everything, not only music, but unfortunately people fail to understand that, and this is why there is so much confusion in the world. Because everyone thinks that his/her own thing its the best one.
So, for a person with a broad taste who happens to be a composer and listens to the compositions of Debussy and Stravinsky, EDM is just another form of club music with catchy samples and simple-as-hell melodies that makes people move their asses, nothing more, nothing less. This holds true for him/her because thats what he/she gets from it. Having dwelled to the powerfull emotional compositions of the "Rite of Spring" and "Firebird", EDM is JUST cheap plastic sounds which will be played for a month or so to a club, only to be forgotten the day after). Is he/she correct? From HIS/HER point of view he/she is. Not from another person though, who has only be exposed to EDM and nothing else. Since the "comparison criteria" change, preferences and qualitative judgements change as well. (note that i'm not expressing any personal preferences here, its only hypothetical. Ofourse i have my own attitudes and preferences...).
A man dwelling in both lush forests full of trees and wastelands full of garbage, could feel that the lush forests which are full of fine trees, express the true beauty of this world (and that some trees are probably more beautiful in comparison to some other ones).
For another man though who have dwelled only in the wasteland and have never seen the lush forest and the trees, he/she would feel that the wasteland full of garbage is indeed good. This person, would eventually be a "wasteland expert", a specialist in distinquishing what he/she things as "good garbage" from the "bad garbage". He she would feel ecstatic of the garbage stench, he/she would also love how some of this garbage smells and eventually make this "selective garbage preference" part of him/herself, adopting strong attitudes towards some of the garbage in comparison to others, criticising the other garbage lovers for not liking the "good-smelling garbage" that he/she likes.
He/She would eventually live happy in this wasteland, never understanding how a lush forest full of trees feels,looks, smells and sounds like. Oblivious and blind to anything else other than his/her small smelly home, he/she eventually be laughed by the "lush forest-full of trees" inhabitants, who in turn could be laughed by some other forest full of trees inhabitants for not showing preferences to the same trees, who in turn could be laughed by the inhabitants living "in the sky full of clouds"...
Seems like you had that little speech in your mind for some time, and you couldn't wait to place it wherever you thought it's suitable. Unfortunately you missed the thread, because:
1. I've never said what I'm listening to
2. I've never compared the stuff I'm listening to with his so-called tech trance
You remind me a bit of Spirt5 with this 3 paragraph "forest-wasteland" illustration, which you could sum up in just one complex sentence.
And just a couple of things:
1. A lot of classical composers are aware there's quality EDM out there and they respect it
2. Those who are too snobby to actually listen to some, but despise it anyway are, like I said, idiots. The world is not turning around their classical composions and they should realize there are creative and innovative people even in this stupid "unts unts" world.
And WTF is happening with this thread, is no one watching the game?
nefardec
quote:
Originally posted by PETRAN
Oh please, send me the results of your "ecstatico-meter" to convince me...lol.
It seems that you didn't read my long post...:p
i don't have to convince you, and frankly, i don't think it's worth it. besides that's it's personal. I probably could have made that clearer, sorry.
i didn't agree with your post, what can I say?
trash is trash. trash is rotten and harmful to health, trees provide nourishment, shelter, etc.
I think your metaphor is bad, and I think the point suffers from the same problem as the metaphor. I've never believed in such relativism.
There's a reason why people eat fruit and not .
Vortex_SA
quote:
Originally posted by PETRAN
"Melodies are not so hard to compose" is like saying "music is not so hard to compose". It absolutely makes no sense or whatsoever!
look, music is not hard to compose... good music is... and i belive if stravinsky was alive today he would have use the tools we have today and combine the great power of the computer and maybe he would of even made EDM? after all classical composers e.g. mozart wrote music for dances as well as other things they made which is not that different from what we do today...
nefardec
I'd like to make another point in defense of plastic, disposable music.
When's the last time you've seen a full orchestra play on a beach under the stars, or in a crumbling warehouse with two faint red lights? When's the last time you were sitting in the symphony hall and the girl next to you tore off her top because of the way the principal violinist played a pizzicato note?
for me the the disposable nature of the music, the 12", the infinite mutability of the set, the unique, chance spectacle of the party is the best part of it all. I love that you can take a single case anywhere you can plug in and create a little island of heaven for a couple hundred people for a few hours. I love that you can download music and play 100 new tracks the next night for the same crowd. I love the disorientation of it all, the constant novelty and disequilibrium that promotes new thoughts and alternative viewpoints.
When you go to a concert hall and listen to some guy play bach hundreds of years later, it just strikes me as a bit disingenuous... besides that you must sit in a little chair all gussied up and use only your ears to experience the music. There is no shared human connection between the observers, and it is a one-dimensional performance.
That said, the most beautiful thing to me about classical music is watching a master play it, watching the muscles twitch in his face
PETRAN
quote:
Originally posted by sljiva
Seems like you had that little speech in your mind for some time, and you couldn't wait to place it wherever you thought it's suitable. Unfortunately you missed the thread, because:
1. I've never said what I'm listening to
2. I've never compared the stuff I'm listening to with his so-called tech trance
...and i don't remember mentioning you?
plus i just though of this analogy, it could be bad, it is still valid...
quote:
You remind me a bit of Spirt5 with this 3 paragraph "forest-wasteland" illustration, which you could sum up in just one complex sentence.
At times its good to read a little more than single-sentences.
quote:
And just a couple of things:
1. A lot of classical composers are aware there's quality EDM out there and they respect it
Too bad that they are dead...
quote:
2. Those who are too snobby to actually listen to some, but despise it anyway are, like I said, idiots. The world is not turning around their classical composions and they should realize there are creative and innovative people even in this stupid "unts unts" world.
The world is indeed turning around classical compositions, classical music and classical western music theory. This doesn't prevent "unts unts" people to be creative though. But to use nefardec's analogy, you can use fantastic plastic cups. Unfortunately they are plastic and they will never be fine-quality glass...
PETRAN
quote:
Originally posted by nefardec
i don't have to convince you, and frankly, i don't think it's worth it. besides that's it's personal. I probably could have made that clearer, sorry.
i didn't agree with your post, what can I say?
trash is trash. trash is rotten and harmful to health, trees provide nourishment, shelter, etc.
I think your metaphor is bad, and I think the point suffers from the same problem as the metaphor. I've never believed in such relativism.
There's a reason why people eat fruit and not .
There is no way you can prove (if you don't like convince) that the tribal rhythms are more "pleasant" in comparison to a western music peace. Thats just bollocks.
And anyway its not the rhythms that do that per se, its the repetition. If i project you a fast flickering scene for some time you may fall in ecstasy as well. Are "fast flickering scenes" more pleasant in comparison to music, just because they induce ecstacy? Or what about drugs...?
I myself don't believe in an absolute relativism. Human mind dwells between "Universals" and "Relatives" thats what i always say (and from complex interactions between them). This is why everyone agrees that classical is superior to anything else, it derives from universals its not something random...still you can learn to love the garbage. Not eating , but loving the garbage...
nefardec
quote:
Originally posted by PETRAN
The world is indeed turning around classical compositions, classical music and classical western music theory. This doesn't prevent "unts unts" people to be creative though. But to use nefardec's analogy, you can use fantastic plastic cups. Unfortunately they are plastic and they will never be fine-quality glass...
this is just stupid. to push your analogy more, what is the difference between glass and plastic in the end? I'm sure there's someone out there with finer quality glass than you anyways.
it should be more about what's inside the 'glass', which is moving people.
I think I've finally come to the point where I can stop caring about individual music tastes.
quote:
There is no way you can prove (if you don't like convince) that the tribal rhythms are more "pleasant" in comparison to a western music peace. Thats just bollocks.
but i don't think that... I just find it a more direct, accessible, and involving way to achieve a state of ecstasy.
quote:
And anyway its not the rhythms that do that per se, its the repetition. If i project you a fast flickering scene for some time you may fall in ecstasy as well. Are "fast flickering scenes" more pleasant in comparison to music, just because they induce ecstacy? Or what about drugs...?
What? Rhythm doesn't have to be fast... I am just not going to bother responding anymore to this one. What do you mean by flickering scene? do you mean "film"?
Vortex_SA
quote:
Originally posted by PETRAN
---My--- world is indeed turning around classical compositions, classical music and classical western music theory.
i think asians and arabians may disagree with you on this one... after all the arabian and asian scales came a long long time before all your "western" compositors...
PETRAN
quote:
Originally posted by Vortex_SA
i think asians and arabians may disagree with you on this one... after all the arabian and asian scales came a long long time before all your "western" compositors...
Yes i agree with you, i was just speaking about the majority of modern pop music (that EDM belongs to) which mostly derives from classical western music.
