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Is religion beneficial? (pg. 12)
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| Darkarbiter |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
and here we have the typical theist tactic when confronted with things they don't wish to deal with: IGNORE. |
:stongue: :stongue: :stongue:
@ in in context
I think a people oft have you on ignore for more then your religous arguments. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Paradox Lost
You know pkr, we could simply cut right down to it and address your problems with Theistic evidence.
I'm sure we would all agree that there have at least been plenty of attempts to provide evidence for God's existence, and evidence for the Divine nature of almost every religious tradition.
You've repeatedly stated that there is none, but unless I have missed something (and I will admit to not following the entire conversation closely), there is a big gap that is present between these evidential supports and your conclusion that no evidence exists.
So what are your responses to some of the arguments in favor of God's existence, which have apparently resulted in your conclusion that there is no evidence to support this claim? |
the only argument that i find particularly compelling is the argument that the universe couldn't have come from nothing. and i am the first to admit that i entertain the notion of god's existence. i am more than happy to be shown to be in error.
there's also an argument regarding the particular "rationality" (or design if you will) of the universe. in that there is such an elegant simplicity of the universe that it must've been designed. is there something like the 'god particle'? forgive me if im bastardising the terms my memory isnt the best, but its something to do with a component of quantum gravity which even if it was .0000000000001 degrees different, the universe could not have come into existance.
scientists counter this with parallel universe theory, but im sure im not alone with not really understanding all of that! :D
to be honest most of the (few) arguments i have come across involve circular reasoning with scripture which i just reject out of hand. if you have any though i'd love a refresher or to encounter some new ones :) |
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| Paradox Lost |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
no, moral hazard has schooled me briefly on this position. its just fancy side-stepping of the real issue (imo), in that the bible cannot provide validity (for to do so would prove the existence of god).
if the bible cannot prove the existence of god, then whether it is valid or not is purely a matter of personal choice. if it is purely a matter of personal choice (faith) then why would a further study of the bible give me a greater ability to judge its validity (when for me, it is already invalid [because the bible is not evidence of anything])?
moral's criticism basically boils down to that i should finish the movie despite the fact that i thought the first hour or so was . since i believe we only have the one life, i have better things to do with that valuable time than read an archaic fantasy novel. |
A couple of things, and again, I apologize if these are things you have addressed previously, and am simply overlooking:
You've dismissed the Bible as an 'archaic fantasy novel,' which indeed reflects severe criticisms against it, which have apparently led you to your conclusions.
What exactly are these criticisms? Where do you find reasons to support your conclusions, and what type of methodology have you adopted when looking at the Bible?
I simply ask these questions because, as I mentioned earlier, I see you passionately advancing these positions concerning God and the Bible, but am unable to recall many 'supporting moments' you have pointed out in the spirit of demonstrating why you believe what you believe (and again, I will admit to not being totally on top of this discussion, so I apologize if you have).
Secondly, I understand we are talking specifically about Christianity and the Bible here, but I was alluding to a more general issue regarding your atheism as a whole, and I understand that this is somewhat tangential to the central conversation you've been involved in. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Darkarbiter
:stongue: :stongue: :stongue:
@ in in context
I think a people oft have you on ignore for more then your religous arguments. |
luckily for me i grew up at a time when making friends was something you did IRL, so the opinions of overly-sensitive internet personas doesn't make me lose any sleep at night ;) |
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| Darkarbiter |
| Fair call, however it's just a little silly to think that thats just because of your religious argument. |
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| Alex |
Bah, of course everyone has to go and quote his dumb posts so I have to see the anyway!
PKC, It's not that I don't want to deal with one side of the argument, I love arguing. It's that I don't want to listen to the typical, boring and moronic 12 year old that typical atheists spew.
The fact that I deny Genesis as being valid, and am open to other parts of the bible being completely false or blown out of proportion doesn't exactly make me a typical every day theist either, nor do I deny evolution or creationism in it's own right.
I don't go to church because for 10 years I've known more about the bible than any idiot evangelical pastor I've encountered, I also question the validity of practically every claim in the bible. In this thread alone I've offered a number of books, articles and a few other "facts" that managed to scare that other guy off it seems, or maybe he's just taking a , whatever.
All you've offered is opinionated nonsense and you expect everyone to just agree with you or be served the ultimate judgment: Being on PKC's idiot list. |
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| Sunsnail |
| quit arguing, lets play FA |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
jesus, youre not asking for much are you!! :p i shall do my best in the time i have. i really should be doing some work!
| quote: | Originally posted by Paradox Lost
What exactly are these criticisms? |
the contradictory nature of the bible. for any "rule" or "truth" littered throughout its pages, you can find another rule or truth saying the exact opposite. the fact that there are many downright dehumanistic components of the bible makes me doubt the veracity of the document as the word of a higher being. the bible's hangups on sexual activities alone shows that it is the word of man, and not of a deity.
now, since the bible is the work man, how are we to identify the truths from the bias? what is god's word and what is man's bull? this can only ever come down to interpretation. there are three problems here.
firstly, the bible means whatever anyone wants it to mean. i dont need to spell out the problems inherent here.
secondly, how can i take a document seriously when god has not deemed his word to be worthy enough of an unabridged, accurate version?
thirdly, why would a god expect thorough and exhaustive study of his word before enlightenment is achieved? what about all the poor humans whose intellectual capacity was less than what is required to adequately "understand" the bible? why is it ok for some of his chosen to miss out on the deeper meaning(s)?
and if it all comes down to"faith" then an understanding isn't all that important anyway, is it? :conf:
| quote: | Originally posted by Paradox Lost
Where do you find reasons to support your conclusions, and what type of methodology have you adopted when looking at the Bible? |
im not quite sure what you mean here. what kind of methodologies do you use when watching a movie? or reading a novel? i will admit that i never read the bible with the view of writing a dissertation on the topic, and my problematic efforts at reading it where as an adolescent so my memory aint the best.
| quote: | Originally posted by Paradox Lost
I simply ask these questions because, as I mentioned earlier, I see you passionately advancing these positions concerning God and the Bible, but am unable to recall many 'supporting moments' you have pointed out in the spirit of demonstrating why you believe what you believe (and again, I will admit to not being totally on top of this discussion, so I apologize if you have).
Secondly, I understand we are talking specifically about Christianity and the Bible here, but I was alluding to a more general issue regarding your atheism as a whole, and I understand that this is somewhat tangential to the central conversation you've been involved in. |
my concerns with religion are far less related to the validity (or not) of the bible (or any other holy book) and the manner in which religion manifests itself in the public sphere. i dont have an issue with a religion that minds its own business and exists on a personal level, as i am a firm believer in freedom of choice and freedom of religion. but that freedom also means freedom FROM religion, which doesn't exist in any modern society that i know of, and it certainly doesn't in any developing nation either. i have a problem with religion's historical tendency to be used as a form of social control. |
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| revitalizedbeat |
problems start when a certain religion prophecizes to be the only way to God.
I recommend reading:
A HISTORY OF GOD , by Karen Armstrong |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Alex
Bah, of course everyone has to go and quote his dumb posts so I have to see the anyway!
PKC, It's not that I don't want to deal with one side of the argument, I love arguing. It's that I don't want to listen to the typical, boring and moronic 12 year old that typical atheists spew.
The fact that I deny Genesis as being valid, and am open to other parts of the bible being completely false or blown out of proportion doesn't exactly make me a typical every day theist either, nor do I deny evolution or creationism in it's own right.
I don't go to church because for 10 years I've known more about the bible than any idiot evangelical pastor I've encountered, I also question the validity of practically every claim in the bible. In this thread alone I've offered a number of books, articles and a few other "facts" that managed to scare that other guy off it seems, or maybe he's just taking a , whatever.
All you've offered is opinionated nonsense and you expect everyone to just agree with you or be served the ultimate judgment: Being on PKC's idiot list. |
whatever man. i don't give a . |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sunsnail
quit arguing, lets play FA |
hehe, im at work mate!
find krypton. he's always up for a game. i'd prefer you get some games under your belt before we play. right now there wouldn't be much fun for either of us :) |
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