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Why does Ontario keep voting Liberal? (pg. 5)
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| MarkT |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
... Voting liberal no matter what is what is costing toronto it's electoral power. |
if you want to say the Torontonians blindly vote Liberal all the time, that's one thing...but it has nothing to do with forfeiting electoral power.
Toronto's electoral power remains what it is, regardless of your perception of how objective the decision-making process is of Torontonians casting their vote. |
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| Skipper |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Smitty20
yes, I know...but am I the only one that finds it a tad bit interesting that the "less government interference, free market for all" Bush administration has to resort to a "socialist" tactic to halt the crisis?
And the concern over moderate government regulation is...what again? I want to hear the right wing argument against government regulation again if anyone can be so kind. |
Are you familiar with what is going on with the US housing/financial market and subprime crisis? The bailout is not for socialist reasons. The liquidity in the US lending markets (not just for consumers, but for everyone/thing that needs money) has all but completely dried up. If the bailout didn't happen, the US mortgage backers would go under, worldwide investor confidence would plummet, the markets would crash. I'm not exaggerating. If you want to see how bad it is already, look at the TSX and the dow today, look at what happened with United Airlines yesterday - investors are spooked and reacting for the sake of reacting. |
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| Dj Smitty20 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Skipper
Are you familiar with what is going on with the US housing/financial market and subprime crisis? The bailout is not for socialist reasons. The liquidity in the US lending markets (not just for consumers, but for everyone/thing that needs money) has all but completely dried up. If the bailout didn't happen, the US mortgage backers would go under, worldwide investor confidence would plummet, the markets would crash. I'm not exaggerating. If you want to see how bad it is already, look at the TSX and the dow today, look at what happened with United Airlines yesterday - investors are spooked and reacting for the sake of reacting. |
Yes I'm aware of the situation with the US housing market. But what I'm wondering is if the market had been regulated to begin with (fixed rates), this might not be such a huge problem right now? |
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| Skipper |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Smitty20
Yes I'm aware of the situation with the US housing market. But what I'm wondering is if the market had been regulated to begin with (fixed rates), this might not be such a huge problem right now? |
You mean, if the lenders weren't permitted to create and sell subprime mortgages to begin with?
In any case, the government took a fairly sizeable equity stake in F&F - I think they were sr preferred shares - so it's not like they just threw cash at it like the Cdn government does with our auto industry. |
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| Orko |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Smitty20
Yes I'm aware of the situation with the US housing market. But what I'm wondering is if the market had been regulated to begin with (fixed rates), this might not be such a huge problem right now? |
So you are advocating government intervention into private lending practices to stop government intervention into private lending practices? |
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| rabbitjoker |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Smitty20
fascist! |
No. Corprate capitalist! |
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| MarkT |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Smitty20
Yes I'm aware of the situation with the US housing market. But what I'm wondering is if the market had been regulated to begin with (fixed rates), this might not be such a huge problem right now? |
you're quite right...but I think that this has virtually nothing to do with the Bush administration backtracking on it's supposed laissez-faire philosophy with regard to markets. I think you'll be hard pressed to find an analyst who thinks that the Bush administration WANTED to step in, lol.
very shoddy lending practices that simply don't exist in Canada (and what should be illegal investment practices) are essentially responsible for the mess...and the whole ABCP fiasco has ONLY BEGUN to unravel. Some analysts recently (re: this week) suggested that we are perhaps ONE QUARTER of the way through figuring out and experiencing the full fallout. That's pretty damn scary.
Fannie and Freddie are private corporations and, *in theory*, a gov't should not be in the business of propping up private corporations. they should sink or swim on their own merits. But, as Sarah mentioned, to let this occur here would potentially decimate the entire financial and real estate sectors (if not the economy as a whole, with the unavoidable spillover effect).
my not-so-technical understanding is that Fannie and Freddie tried to obtain the necessary capital from the private sector, but no one (including Warren Buffet, yes his involvement was suggested, lol!) was willing to invest the necessary $$$ in a couple of sinking ships. so the gov't had little choice but to act or potentially watch them collapse, with serious fallout.
yeah, it's beyond sketchy that taxpayer money being used to prop up private corporations. while that happens indirectly on a very regular basis (corporate tax breaks/incentives/subsidies, tarrifs on foreign imports, protectionist policies/laws, etc such as preventing foreign ownership of banks, etc), this is perhaps the most drastic and direct example (?). The alternative is probably a LOT worse though.
anyway...back to how awful it is for Torontonians to keep voting Liberal
:rolleyes: :D |
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| Spam |
I voted Liberal before because Jean Chretian choked a journalist (and who the hell likes those guys anyway?) and Paul Martin was the hero in waiting, ready and willing to make Canada the shining palace on top of the mountain for an entire generation!
Then I heard that Stephen Harper eats babies and kills puppies with his laser-vision, just like in Terminator! And that's TOTALLY wicked-cool, so I changed my vote.
Besides, Stephan Dion doesn't do ANYTHING cool. All he wants to do is make everything more expensive while giving me a little bit back. It's nice of him to empty my left pocket so my right pocket can get some attention, but he doesn't want to hurt, kill and maim anything, so I just find him COMPLETELY boring and out of touch. Doesn't he realize Canadians want laser-vision from their leaders? What a doof.
If I was still in school, I'd totally vote NDP, I could use a few weeks off during a string of "Layton Day"s. But since I don't work in a government job or go to school, he really has nothing to offer me except Obama's promise of change and hope. I HOPE if the NDP are elected that I have more than a handful of CHANGE after my taxes come off my pay-check. |
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| Skipper |
| quote: | Originally posted by MarkT
yeah, it's beyond sketchy that taxpayer money being used to prop up private corporations. while that happens indirectly on a very regular basis (corporate tax breaks/incentives/subsidies, tarrifs on foreign imports, protectionist policies/laws, etc such as preventing foreign ownership of banks, etc), this is perhaps the most drastic and direct example (?). The alternative is probably a LOT worse though.
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Indeed. And the alternative would be insane.
Although some economic data is coming out now indicating that a recovery could begin as early as next summer. |
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| Skipper |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
I do like public/private partnerships and closely monitored private services when it comes to delivery of social services. A carefully balanced mix between public and private maintains public interest while allowing costs to be controlled through the desire to earn a profit. This desire is what lacks when something is 100% public as the people running it assume that the money pot is endless and there is no drive to conserve expense and maximize performance.
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I do agree with you there.
What kind of "overweight govt social programs" are you particularly against though? |
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| -g- |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
What did the Liberals ever do for toronto in 13 years? Cities arent using their voter power. If the liberals know that they cant do wrong and will always get elected why will they appeal to cities like toronto? And if the conservatives know that they can never do right why would they try to win over toronto? Voting liberal no matter what is what is costing toronto it's electoral power. |
calm the down. i didn't even say how i prefer to vote, never mind cast my vote for the liberals unequivocally. read the post again.
the question was why does ontario keep voting liberal - i answered that in the form of why this happens as a form of anti-sentiment against PC rather than pro-Liberal.
because people tend to not vote for PC in large cities, and because ontario has lots of big cities, on average that equates to liberal through default rather than liberal directly. you'll find that directly in cities the ndp do very well too, but overall not so much.
and why then is their an anti-PC sentiment in cities? because they tend to not fund as a rule; that's their whole m.o., being the party they are that tout lower taxes and generally 'work it out yourself' kind of philosophy. cities don't like that because they know that cities provide the economic stimulus that powers the bulk of canada's economy, and so view the PC agenda as short-sighted.
it also doesn't help the PC cause that in urban centres, there tends to be a much wider range of cultures and a more liberal(small 'l') sense of rights, etc. and so the PC habit of appealing to more traditional values doesn't fly so well. |
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| Abercrombie |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
The 2 Billion dollar gun registry? |
That was an NDP idea that the Liberals implemented. |
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