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Dow drops 778 points (pg. 3)
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by danlaxx1
Steven, I know what you mean. My mom's business is still hurting and I'm sure today is only gonna make it worse. Hopefully it can't get much worse than it already is.
The middle class blue-collar families have been hurting for long enough. Not to be a total dick, but it's time the white-collar millionaires start losing some jobs to see what it's like. I'm 100% sure someone is gonna call me a ing idiot. But it is what it is. |
the reasons white collar workers attain their stature is because throughout life they worked hard and didn't short change themselves. No one deserves to lose their job because of actions of other people, especially people who worked hard their entire lives to get where they are. You may work hard at your union job (no one is claiming you don't - although i know why people get into the union to begin with), but you didn't work hard in college for 4 years to get the best GPA to make it into a good grad school. And you didn't work hard in grad school to get the best grades you could simply so you have a shot at one of a limited number of interviews. You weren't in a library until 2am every Friday and Saturday for a month prior to finals, missing nights at the bar. That's at least 6 years of hard mental (and very competitive) work you didn't do. And you probably aren't working 60 - 80 hours a week. White collar workers who make bank work much harder than you, and sacrifice more as well, and that's why they get paid that way.
Class structure, except in cases of legacy wealth, sorts it self out based on hard work. People stay in the middle class because they are content with it. A young person is only tied to the middle class by his/her lack of drive. If you're content with being a school teacher/nurse/electrician that's great but you should be content with your economic status. Not many people make more than $400,000 who didn't work hard to get there. You can't blame them for your economic status, and you shouldn't wish them ill will simply for being successful. |
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| DJ_Lord |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
the reasons white collar workers attain their stature is because throughout life they worked hard and didn't short change themselves. No one deserves to lose their job because of actions of other people, especially people who worked hard their entire lives to get where they are. You may work hard at your union job (no one is claiming you don't - although i know why people get into the union to begin with), but you didn't work hard in college for 4 years to get the best GPA to make it into a good grad school. And you didn't work hard in grad school to get the best grades you could simply so you have a shot at one of a limited number of interviews. You weren't in a library until 2am every Friday and Saturday for a month prior to finals, missing nights at the bar. That's at least 6 years of hard mental (and very competitive) work you didn't do. And you probably aren't working 60 - 80 hours a week. White collar workers who make bank work much harder than you, and sacrifice more as well, and that's why they get paid that way.
Class structure, except in cases of legacy wealth, sorts it self out based on hard work. People stay in the middle class because they are content with it. A young person is only tied to the middle class by his/her lack of drive. If you're content with being a school teacher/nurse/electrician that's great but you should be content with your economic status. Not many people make more than $400,000 who didn't work hard to get there. You can't blame them for your economic status, and you shouldn't wish them ill will simply for being successful. |
+1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 million billion trillion gazillion!!!!! :disbelief |
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| DJ_Lord |
| quote: | Originally posted by Blake
+1 . The markets will always rebound, though clearly things will get worse before they do |
no doubt, however, these are good times to set some targets!
housing is great now too! i know this guy who bought 10 townhouses in Cincinnati for 150k! :crazy: |
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| Keryn |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
the reasons white collar workers attain their stature is because throughout life they worked hard and didn't short change themselves. No one deserves to lose their job because of actions of other people, especially people who worked hard their entire lives to get where they are. You may work hard at your union job (no one is claiming you don't - although i know why people get into the union to begin with), but you didn't work hard in college for 4 years to get the best GPA to make it into a good grad school. And you didn't work hard in grad school to get the best grades you could simply so you have a shot at one of a limited number of interviews. You weren't in a library until 2am every Friday and Saturday for a month prior to finals, missing nights at the bar. That's at least 6 years of hard mental (and very competitive) work you didn't do. And you probably aren't working 60 - 80 hours a week. White collar workers who make bank work much harder than you, and sacrifice more as well, and that's why they get paid that way.
Class structure, except in cases of legacy wealth, sorts it self out based on hard work. People stay in the middle class because they are content with it. A young person is only tied to the middle class by his/her lack of drive. If you're content with being a school teacher/nurse/electrician that's great but you should be content with your economic status. Not many people make more than $400,000 who didn't work hard to get there. You can't blame them for your economic status, and you shouldn't wish them ill will simply for being successful. |
well said. |
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| Konijn |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
People stay in the middle class because they are content with it. A young person is only tied to the middle class by his/her lack of drive. |
since when does being a member of the middle class denote a "lack of drive"?
the apotheosis of the the top income percentile and the devaluing of the middle class is one of the fundamental problems of american culture during the last 35 years. the 'american dream' used to be expansive in its conception, taking into account life concepts like "happiness" and "satisfaction" -- in addition to making bucks -- but over the last few decades it has become inextricably linked to employment in a handful of industries, to the denigration of all others.
there's a reason most industrialized nations outside the u.s. have a citizenry far happier than us. to be sure, they celebrate their medical, legal and upper-tier business professions, but they've also carved out a part of their culture that values the middle class and doesn't treat employment in the public sector as a failure in life. |
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| DJ Eco |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
the reasons white collar workers attain their stature is because throughout life they worked hard and didn't short change themselves. No one deserves to lose their job because of actions of other people, especially people who worked hard their entire lives to get where they are. You may work hard at your union job (no one is claiming you don't - although i know why people get into the union to begin with), but you didn't work hard in college for 4 years to get the best GPA to make it into a good grad school. And you didn't work hard in grad school to get the best grades you could simply so you have a shot at one of a limited number of interviews. You weren't in a library until 2am every Friday and Saturday for a month prior to finals, missing nights at the bar. That's at least 6 years of hard mental (and very competitive) work you didn't do. And you probably aren't working 60 - 80 hours a week. White collar workers who make bank work much harder than you, and sacrifice more as well, and that's why they get paid that way.
Class structure, except in cases of legacy wealth, sorts it self out based on hard work. People stay in the middle class because they are content with it. A young person is only tied to the middle class by his/her lack of drive. If you're content with being a school teacher/nurse/electrician that's great but you should be content with your economic status. Not many people make more than $400,000 who didn't work hard to get there. You can't blame them for your economic status, and you shouldn't wish them ill will simply for being successful. |
Well said... I think a strong differentiation between white-collar and those at the top of the pyramid (CEOs) needs to be made, on Dan's part... White-collar workers are obviously hard workers to get to where they're at, and only a handful get there by luck or family or connections... The very upper crust I think Dan is talking about makes it very hard for regular people like us to like or respect them... Yes, they've worked hard to climb the ladder, but the ladder they've climbed turned them into greedy and soulless individuals (some of them, not all)... That's simply what happened in this case. The average Joe-Shmo ("white-collar" but not powerful) giving out mortgages or dealing with investments means no harm... He has a quota to fill coming from the very upper-tier of the company that says no deal or investment is a bad deal. Turns out they were wrong, but the guy at the bank behind the counter asking you to sign isn't the wrong one here, the head of the bank demanding more greed ("or get the hell out of the company") is. In that sense (but not "ALL white-collar") Dan's right. |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Konijn
since when does being a member of the middle class denote a "lack of drive"?
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it doesn't. I'm sure almost everyone in the middle class has a drive for something. The question is whether they have a drive to leave the middle class for a higher economic status. Many people immediately show, by their occupational choices, that they don't have the drive to do what is necessary to achieve that goal. When someone chooses to become a teacher, police officer, or firefighter they are conceded never to leave middle class. That's fine, but you can't tell me that a high school teacher has the drive necessary to jump economic status. If that drive was present then that person would have made a choice more appropriate with that goal.
as for all that happiness stuff, that's an entirely different conversation. I wasn't degrading the middle class. I'm still part of that group (i think). You may be right, but i wasn't discussing any of that, nor do i find it relevant for the current discussion. |
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| Blake |
LOL.. "drive"
You guys are totally omitting the pre-determined conditions in people's lives that also play huge factors in determining whether they even SEE certain life paths as feasible options. The 'American Dream' idea looks nice on paper but in reality it doesn't take into account the fact that everyone ISN'T born equal. The income and education levels of the family one is born into tends to determine which neighborhoods he'll grow up in, what kinds of resources he'll have (or not have) at his disposal, the quality of education he'll receive growing up (which undoubtedly will have an affect on test scores and higher education), as well as the kinds of physical and mental health risk factors he'll be exposed to.
How about we take twin brothers and spit them up at birth. We'll have one brother raised by a family with no education past high school which heavily abuses alcohol and narcotics and falls below the poverty line, then take the other twin and have him raised in a straight edged family of physicians and engineers. When the twin raised below the poverty line becomes a city worker, and the twin raised by professionals becomes a doctor we'll tell the doctor he simply had more "drive".:rolleyes:
It's funny.. I think most of the people I've heard over the years try to oversimplify something as complex as people's socio-economic status' in life to being about nothing more than drive are people like myself. People who were raised (regardless of economic status) by parents (grandparents/gaurdians/etc) with good heads on their shoulders. Economic status aside, if you've got people keeping you off the streets and in the books... if you've got people constantly stressing education, pushing you to excel, doing their best to make resources available to you even if there are little available, and steering you back in the right direction when you veer off course, your chances for upward mobility in life will obviously be higher regardless of where you come from. The thing is (and I know this is hard to believe) not everyone is fortunate enough to grow up around people of sound mind. Poverty and wealth are states of mind after all. If you're born into a family who invests their money in Jordan's and bling instead of your education.. That is; if the building blocks of mediocrity are being set into place for you at a young age and continue to be set into place throughout your life, your concept of success will be vastly different from those who become white collar workers. Forget about diversifying your portfolio and owning real estate... your concept of success may just be getting the out of the horrible situation you grew up in and simply creating a more stable one for yourself.
I agree that there shouldn't necessarily be a penalty for success. I've got plenty of family members who've busted their asses hard to get out of the projects, off welfare etc etc to hold the white collar positions they currently hold and they shouldn't be punished for doing nothing but working hard all their lives, BUT drive was one of MANY factors set into place which facilitated their success stories. The same goes for everyone else who's in the upper income brackets.
Question is; do the socio-economic trail blazers have an obligation to the rest of society? I don't know the answer to that, but I do know that we're all in this together. The problems of the poor and middle class can only be neglected for so long before they start to have an affect on the elite. |
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| danlaxx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
the reasons white collar workers attain their stature is because throughout life they worked hard and didn't short change themselves. No one deserves to lose their job because of actions of other people, especially people who worked hard their entire lives to get where they are. You may work hard at your union job (no one is claiming you don't - although i know why people get into the union to begin with), but you didn't work hard in college for 4 years to get the best GPA to make it into a good grad school. And you didn't work hard in grad school to get the best grades you could simply so you have a shot at one of a limited number of interviews. You weren't in a library until 2am every Friday and Saturday for a month prior to finals, missing nights at the bar. That's at least 6 years of hard mental (and very competitive) work you didn't do. And you probably aren't working 60 - 80 hours a week. White collar workers who make bank work much harder than you, and sacrifice more as well, and that's why they get paid that way.
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I'm not about to get into the parameters of my apprentice ship, but I will tell you this, I work VERY hard at it. It's not something that anybody is able to do. Outside of work, it can be very demanding at times.
Personally, I don't believe in saying someone works harder then the next person. We're all trying to accomplish the same goal... to keep a roof over our heads and put food on the table. Many people work very hard at many different things to achieve that.
I never wished ill will on anybody. I just said it's time they start to feel what the middle class did for a long time. |
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| ReenTeenTeen |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Blake
LOL.. "drive"
You guys are totally omitting the pre-determined conditions in people's lives that also play huge factors in determining whether they even SEE certain life paths as feasible options. The 'American Dream' idea looks nice on paper but in reality it doesn't take into account the fact that everyone ISN'T born equal. The income and education levels of the family one is born into tends to determine which neighborhoods he'll grow up in, what kinds of resources he'll have (or not have) at his disposal, the quality of education he'll receive growing up (which undoubtedly will have an affect on test scores and higher education), as well as the kinds of physical and mental health risk factors he'll be exposed to.
How about we take twin brothers and spit them up at birth. We'll have one brother raised by a family with no education past high school which heavily abuses alcohol and narcotics and falls below the poverty line, then take the other twin and have him raised in a straight edged family of physicians and engineers. When the twin raised below the poverty line becomes a city worker, and the twin raised by professionals becomes a doctor we'll tell the doctor he simply had more "drive".:rolleyes:
It's funny.. I think most of the people I've heard over the years try to oversimplify something as complex as people's socio-economic status' in life to being about nothing more than drive are people like myself. People who were raised (regardless of economic status) by parents (grandparents/gaurdians/etc) with good heads on their shoulders. Economic status aside, if you've got people keeping you off the streets and in the books... if you've got people constantly stressing education, pushing you to excel, doing their best to make resources available to you even if there are little available, and steering you back in the right direction when you veer off course, your chances for upward mobility in life will obviously be higher regardless of where you come from. The thing is (and I know this is hard to believe) not everyone is fortunate enough to grow up around people of sound mind. Poverty and wealth are states of mind after all. If you're born into a family who invests their money in Jordan's and bling instead of your education.. That is; if the building blocks of mediocrity are being set into place for you at a young age and continue to be set into place throughout your life, your concept of success will be vastly different from those who become white collar workers. Forget about diversifying your portfolio and owning real estate... your concept of success may just be getting the out of the horrible situation you grew up in and simply creating a more stable one for yourself.
I agree that there shouldn't necessarily be a penalty for success. I've got plenty of family members who've busted their asses hard to get out of the projects, off welfare etc etc to hold the white collar positions they currently hold and they shouldn't be punished for doing nothing but working hard all their lives, BUT drive was one of MANY factors set into place which facilitated their success stories. The same goes for everyone else who's in the upper income brackets.
Question is; do the socio-economic trail blazers have an obligation to the rest of society? I don't know the answer to that, but I do know that we're all in this together. The problems of the poor and middle class can only be neglected for so long before they start to have an affect on the elite. |
focus man.....all that is irrelevant because if you read back to my post i said:
| quote: |
People stay in the middle class because they are content with it. A young person is only tied to the middle class by his/her lack of drive. |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by danlaxx1
I'm not about to get into the parameters of my apprentice ship, but I will tell you this, I work VERY hard at it. It's not something that anybody is able to do. Outside of work, it can be very demanding at times. |
when i say "hard work" i don't mean just physically demanding, but also mentally demanding, time consuming, and stressful. It is disingenuous to suggest that every job has the same level of stresses and demands. If that was the case then almost every job would pay exactly the same. Obviously (because we are having this discussion), that is not the case. While a school teacher may work as hard as (s)he can to fulfill the duties of the position and may be stressed out from time to time, the 8-3 days, 2.5 months off in summer, and lack of strict unforeseen deadlines make the job relatively easy compared to someone who works 9-8 with only 1 or 2 vacation weeks a year (and when taken it is looked down upon) all while being subject to unreasonably harsh deadlines.
| quote: | Originally posted by danlaxx1
Personally, I don't believe in saying someone works harder then the next person. We're all trying to accomplish the same goal... to keep a roof over our heads and put food on the table. Many people work very hard at many different things to achieve that. |
that's not even close to true. Your primary goal may be to put food on the table, but that is just one of many (and actually the easiest to fulfill) of all my goals.
| quote: | Originally posted by danlaxx1
I never wished ill will on anybody. I just said it's time they start to feel what the middle class did for a long time. |
and i quote
| quote: | Originally posted by danlaxx1
Not to be a total dick, but it's time the white-collar millionaires start losing some jobs to see what it's like. |
wishing someone to lose their job is wishing ill will. |
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