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York U Students?? (pg. 10)
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| Stilez |
| quote: | Originally posted by evil_cookie
A note in general: look at the Scandinavian states and their advocacy for unionization and compare how well their market is doing compared to Canada. |
didn't Iceland claim bankruptcy, and their government collapse?
edit: Ok here's my take on this. I don't know the facts or the history as to why York's faculty always seem to go on strike. I'm not sure if I'm for or against the union striking (i don't know their reasons/objectives), but I can sympathize with the students. Many who can barely afford it, and take absurd amounts of loans in order to get there and who's education and hard work is being affected by no fault of their own. It's like taking your car in to a shop and paying in advance for the service, but the mechanic walks out of..let's say MAACO and you're left unable to access your car. Something that is yours, paid for. At least let them get their money back since they never received a service that they've already paid for. As for the union and the school... let them sort it out but not at the student's expense. |
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| evil_cookie |
| quote: | Originally posted by Stilez
didn't Iceland claim bankruptcy, and their government collapse? |
The government did not collapse and what happened in Iceland is no different than what is happening in our own continent and much of the rest of the world--at the time being.
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| quote: | Originally posted by Stilez
but I can sympathize with the students. Many who can barely afford it, and take absurd amounts of loans in order to get there and who's education and hard work is being affected by no fault of their own. |
right, because the instructors themselves have not collected a massive debt over their own extensive years of education. |
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| Dj Smitty20 |
Well, it seems I have a supporter after all. Thank you Cookie, for pointing out the extreme short sightedness and one-way attitude that's shockingly prevalent here regarding this issue.
It's hilarious that people think teachers and university instructors shouldn't be paid well. These people teach YOU the SKILLS you NEED to succeed in your field, but goddamn, they dont' have any rights?
Moronic! |
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by evil_cookie
Before you continue your nonsense, it should be noted that the unionization advocates are the same people who support certain immigration laws which have allowed you to come to this country in hopes of obtaining citizenship. So before making ‘absurd’ claims, know that the underlying social and democratic principles that you are so robustly refuting are same ones that you have been privileged with.
A note in general: look at the Scandinavian states and their advocacy for unionization and compare how well their market is doing compared to Canada. |
excuse me? :rolleyes: nonsense? you might want to rephrase that. |
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| evil_cookie |
Breaking news indeed.
In any event, the current global economic turmoil is just that--global--and not exclusive. So again, it's still no different than what the rest of the world is going through.
And this should not negate the fact that Scandinavian states have always prided themselves in providing social benefits that even Canadians marvel at. |
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| Stilez |
| quote: | Originally posted by evil_cookie
right, because the instructors themselves have not collected a massive debt over their own extensive years of education. |
They're employees of the establishment and it's between them to sort it out. For instance, compare it to..say.. McDonalds workers striking at a store. The difference is that customers have the option of driving away and going to another location...but the same cannot be said about students and their studies. It's not as easy for them to pick up and continue at UofT or Rye High..etc. If they could... I'm almost positive many would.
Now I know comparing McD's to this is totally different on many levels..but I'm trying to paint a general picture of the situation that the students are faced with. |
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| evil_cookie |
| quote: | Originally posted by Stilez
They're employees of the establishment and it's between them to sort it out. For instance, compare it to..say.. McDonalds workers striking at a store. The difference is that customers have the option of driving away and going to another location...but the same cannot be said about students and their studies. It's not as easy as them to pick up and continue at UofT or Rye High..etc. If they could... I'm almost positive many would. |
The reason your analogy doesn’t work is because you’re trivializing the situation--it’s not Mc Donalds.And they are absolutely sorting it out; via unionization they can ensure that their rights are honoured and not taken advantage of.
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Generalizations are as useful in this discussion as the anecdotes are. |
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| Stilez |
I guess what I was trying to get across is that the students aren't faced with many (if any) choices at all. So they've essentially been held 'hostage' at the mercy of the 2 parties.
How fair is that/How would you react? And answer honestly. You may not be able or willing to put yourself in the position of one of those York Students, but put yourself in the place of a 'client'/customer who's paid for a service and is being refused access to that service through no fault of their own.
If less students attend. Less TA's are needed = job losses either way. |
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| evil_cookie |
| quote: | Originally posted by Stilez
I guess what I was trying to get across is that the students aren't faced with many (if any) choices at all. So they've essentially been held 'hostage' at the mercy of the 2 parties.
How fair is that/How would you react? And answer honestly. |
We are not in disagreement here--albeit I think that the use of the word ‘hostage’ is a little too melodramatic in its attempt to obtain a generally benign response. I am glad that you acknowledge the fact that there are two parties at the table--not just the malevolent and capricious union members as most people in this thread see them as.
It’s not fair to the students; not in the least bit. Likewise, it is not fair for faculty members. So, insofar as we agree that it’s not fair what students and faculty member are going through collectively, then we have no quarrel. But you cannot rationally and impartially blame the union for everything.
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Smitty20
It's hilarious that people think teachers and university instructors shouldn't be paid well. These people teach YOU the SKILLS you NEED to succeed in your field, but goddamn, they dont' have any rights?
Moronic! |
heh. Honestly. |
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| Skipper |
| quote: | Originally posted by evil_cookie
Minimum wage, the right to organize, holiday pay, pension, compensation and severance pay, job security, enforcing a safe work environment...so on and so forth--yup, short term and narrow minded.
Do you think before you type?
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Those are all short term aspects that eventually (ie. long term) bring up labor costs above what the market would normally dictate, ultimately rendering the employer completely inflexible and not competitive. The auto unions have shot themselves in the foot, they have driven up worker pay so high that their employer is facing bankruptcy, partially because they do not have the flexibility to scale back.
Those demands would be considered long term in nature only if the employer were guaranteed to keep operating. You have seen clearly with the automakers that sometimes it's not possbile, and the union must share blame in the demise of its own members. |
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| Skipper |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Smitty20
Well, it seems I have a supporter after all. Thank you Cookie, for pointing out the extreme short sightedness and one-way attitude that's shockingly prevalent here regarding this issue.
It's hilarious that people think teachers and university instructors shouldn't be paid well. These people teach YOU the SKILLS you NEED to succeed in your field, but goddamn, they dont' have any rights?
Moronic! |
They have the right to market determined labor conditions, and the right to choose how and where they participate.
I've said it before - you don't like your job or the way you are treated, LEAVE. Don't whine and stomp your feet like a toddler until someone gives you a hand out. |
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