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York U Students?? (pg. 8)
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| Dj Smitty20 |
| quote: | Originally posted by dEsidEL
and if more York TAs and part time staff thought the same way, things should naturally work themselves out over time
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I highly doubt that. The problems I've been talking about are rampant at every university in Ontario, not just York. So you think that to resolve future strikes, people shouldn't pursue graduate degrees or doctorates? In today's world, when you're lucky to get a decent job with just a BA, I don't see enrollment in MA and PhD programs decreasing. There's also that small problem of increased enrollment. Universites are double the size of what they were only 10-20 years ago. More students naturally means you need to hire more teachers...right? That isn't what is happening. |
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| The Highroller |
Looks like U of T is in a strike position on February 1st.
Hopefully McGuinty legislates these people back to work so it sets a precedent and will make TAs at other schools think twice about striking.
If U of T strikes for anymore than a couple of weeks, it will delay my career aspirations by at least a year (due to the timing of professional examinations). :( |
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| Skipper |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Smitty20
I was on strike last year with the Laurier instructors so I know exactly how they are treated and it's not really any different at any university in Ontario. The issues are the same; pay and benefits and an increasing void of full time academics.
It's ok for universities to accept double the enrollment over the last ten years (and pass that amount on to students), but do they meet that increased demand by hiring more staff? Of course not. Instead, they just let the older professors retire and fill the void by hiring struggling academics for one course (for a whopping income of 6 or 7 thousand per course!! WOW!) That's how we should reward people who spend 10-15 years of their life living on nothing and getting in debt with the government and banks to attain the highest level of education. One professor I knew was in his early 40s, had a kid, and despite publishing articles and participating in book publications, could only get one course at UoT, one course at Western and one at Laurier all in the same term. And he, like countless others, have been scraping that meagre existence together for over 5 years.
I bet York University has no problem handing out their dozens of doctorates for each field every year and taking all that money they get from the student and government. No, it's always the union's fault and those greedy teachers!! Those greedy instructors who are delivering the supposed HIGHEST education available (which costs upward of 6 thousand per student now and that's not counting government subsidies) yet are barely able to survive in the working world.
I'm not even in the university system anymore (partly because I recognised that teaching in the university system is NOT worth it), but I can fully understand the gripes of these instructors. Just because someone chooses teaching as their career DOES NOT mean they lose their right to organise, to strike or to fight for a better overall living.
The university took the student's money for tuition this year. If they can't resolve THEIR labour problems, then THEY should refund student's tuition. I'm really ing tired of people ignorantly blaming unions for everything.
Legislate against them, give the corporations the right to treat people and workers like and see what kind of ing world we get. |
Seriously, I appreciate job conditions might not be great, but unions aren't the way to fix it.
All they do is distort market dynamics for labor, ultimately harming the employer by driving up labor costs and making them uncompetitive. (You don't have to look much past the automakers for further evidence...or York's most recent application numbers)
Unions have a very short term, narrow minded focus and often it comes back to bite them in the ass. You can justify it all you want, but I am categorically against unions and your miserable work conditions aren't going to change that. |
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| dEsidEL |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Smitty20
So you think that to resolve future strikes, people shouldn't pursue graduate degrees or doctorates?
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no that's not what I'm trying to say, and I'm not sure how you managed to derive that. i'm of the opinion that natural market forces should inevitably determine what the impacted workers are valued if allowed. unions artificially inflate wages against this belief through threat of labour disruption, thus making the employer less competitive within the market.
anyways, the economic benefits for and against unions are well documented in economic theory so it's probably pointless having us debate endlessly on this. i highly doubt your opinion on the matter will change, especially having personal experiences being involved with one.
just wanted to vent my personal frustration at this whole matter, ultimately given that the real victims in all this are the students.
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| Dj Smitty20 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Skipper
Seriously, I appreciate job conditions might not be great, but unions aren't the way to fix it.
All they do is distort market dynamics for labor, ultimately harming the employer by driving up labor costs and making them uncompetitive. (You don't have to look much past the automakers for further evidence...or York's most recent application numbers)
Unions have a very short term, narrow minded focus and often it comes back to bite them in the ass. You can justify it all you want, but I am categorically against unions and your miserable work conditions aren't going to change that. |
They aren't MY miserable work conditions actually. But since you admit to them being "miserable" and you still don't think those who are striking to improve those conditions should have that basic right, then there's not much point bothering. Have you ever been exploited in the work place before? I bet you have. But you strike me as the kind of person who would allow themselves to be taken advantage of like that instead of sticking up for yourself.
I also find that those who bitch about unions the loudest are those who want and need one in their work places the most. |
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| Dave Akermanis |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Smitty20
Do you think that 2/3 or 3/4 of any level of government's full time workforce is under 50%? Hmm...get back to me on that.
The reality is that most of you on here don't know anything about how university faculties run their departments or what it's like to actually be a university instructor.
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No, I think the reality here is you know very little about how the real world works.
You might be surprised when I tell you that the VAST MAJORITY of people who work for, oh, lets say the Ontario Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care are contract and temporary full-time workers.
If you want job security and tenure go work for the federal government full-time for three years. They'll make you indeterminate. Full time employment in the tenured sense is becoming a thing of the past. These whiny union folks need to take their balls out of their purses and join the rest of the world. |
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| The Highroller |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Smitty20
I also find that those who bitch about unions the loudest are those who want and need one in their work places the most. |
:stongue: |
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| Skipper |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Smitty20
But you strike me as the kind of person who would allow themselves to be taken advantage of like that instead of sticking up for yourself.
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Really? That's funny, because when I didn't like my work conditions or opportunities in my industry, I switched employers, and then following that, I went back to school for an MBA to improve my skills and job prospects. It's worked out great....making your own success as opposed to relying on others to protect you generally does though. |
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| exstasie |
There's no point in arguing about this.
There are those who agree strongly about the positive aspects of unions and the protection of the employees...
and there those who think that unions are complete and under BS and don't provide anything security for those who are lazy, and inefficient in the workplace and causes production/innovation to remain stagnant...
I wonder what category I fit under...hmmm
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| Dave Akermanis |
| hey the union goons are protesting out front of my building on University Ave. A fight broke out and there are cops everywhere... break out the popcorn, front page news time. |
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| Dj Smitty20 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Skipper
Really? That's funny, because when I didn't like my work conditions or opportunities in my industry, I switched employers, and then following that, I went back to school for an MBA to improve my skills and job prospects. It's worked out great....making your own success as opposed to relying on others to protect you generally does though. |
Well you went to Ivey (or one of the other business schools?), so I'm not surprised you view the labour market and workers as only a means to an end and little more. Your attitude would probably earn you a reputation for being a disliked and generally ty boss too.
Yeah, the economy is bad, bla bla bla. But it's been bad before and it will be bad again. Tough economic times are never an excuse to just all over 100 years of progress for worker's rights. If you tried to espouse these views in the Canadian political environment, you'd all be lambasted. Even Harper is smart enough to avoid bashing organised workforces as ignorantly as some one you here. |
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| Dj Smitty20 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dave Akermanis
No, I think the reality here is you know very little about how the real world works.
You might be surprised when I tell you that the VAST MAJORITY of people who work for, oh, lets say the Ontario Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care are contract and temporary full-time workers.
If you want job security and tenure go work for the federal government full-time for three years. They'll make you indeterminate. Full time employment in the tenured sense is becoming a thing of the past. These whiny union folks need to take their balls out of their purses and join the rest of the world. |
Wow dude. So because I support the right to organise and I have issues with businesses (across the board) increasingly cheaping out on their employees, that means I don't live in the real world? I teach in the secondary system and I put in, on average, 10-11 hour days. I volunteer a load of my own time too. Do I get paid enough? That's debatable, but I probably do better than a lot of you on here and I would still support YOUR right to go on strike if you were getting the shaft. I also don't complain much, because I'm putting in my time and paying my dues. But when or if the time comes for Ontario secondary school teachers to go on strike again like they did 10 years ago, I'll be out supporting my union.
Are you the kind of person that thinks a guy who is injured on an assembly line shouldn't get compensation? Or do you think it's fair for someone in a non-unionised environment to put in 11-12 hour days but only get paid for 8, all in the effort to be "productive"? If you don't think that kind of crap happens in the white or "pink" collar world, then perhaps you should join the real world. |
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