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California's Same Sex Marriage Ban
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| in2muzikk |
Hi, this message comes from California, where the people here voted last week to change our State Constitution to define marriage as only between a man and a woman.
There has been a fierce debate about this topic since then our our local TranceAddict forum, with a lot of support for same sex marriage but some very heated arguments against it. Those against usually cite protestant religion, claiming that being gay is an immoral lifestyle, or that marriage should be allowed only to those who can bear children. Some go so far as to state that marriage defines the fabric of our society, and allowing same sex marriage would ruin it.
I know that same sex marriage has been legalized in the Ontario province since June 2003, so I'd like to know if anyone would care to share a few thoughts on how this has changed society (for the better or worse) since then, or did it really not make much of a difference?
If interested in reading the California discussion and posting replies directly in our forum, I will also give the three main thread links below. Please keep in mind that to fully understand the perspectives and issues, a lot of reading is required, but this might be great for anyone who is studying or writing a thesis on the subject!
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...6&forumid=60&s=
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...5&forumid=60&s=
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...6&forumid=60&s=
Thanks for your interest. As for our music scene, Armin van Buuren will be playing a 9-hour set here for New Year's Eve if anyone would like to join us! :) |
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| ÖZmözis |
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| chinamon |
so.. what exactly do you want us to do? legalize gay marriage?
i dont care about gay marriage here in ontario so i care even less about it in california. |
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| jsibilin |
my view on gay marriage.. DONT'T MARRY
gay or straight.. don't ever get married.. even if you love a person..
I believe marriage should only mean two ppl are raising a child |
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| ÖZmözis |
| quote: | Originally posted by jsibilin
my view on gay marriage.. DONT'T MARRY
gay or straight.. don't ever get married.. even if you love a person..
I believe marriage should only mean two ppl are raising a child |
wtf? lol |
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| chinamon |
| quote: | Originally posted by jsibilin
my view on gay marriage.. DONT'T MARRY
gay or straight.. don't ever get married.. even if you love a person..
I believe marriage should only mean two ppl are raising a child |
so sex should only occur when two people want to make a baby?
dude, you really need to stop smoking weed. you are getting more dumb as each day passes. |
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| malek |
| they should content to civil union, it's the usage of the word "marriage" that pissed the majority into voting against same sex "marriage". |
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| Yohan |
| quote: | Originally posted by malek
they should content to civil union, it's the usage of the word "marriage" that pissed the majority into voting against same sex "marriage". |
pretty much a case of gays wanting everything, but runs into religion and loses
i have no problem with gays getting same rights and benefits as hetero couples.
but when you put God into the equation, it gets messy |
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| in2muzikk |
| quote: | Originally posted by malek
they should content to civil union, it's the usage of the word "marriage" that pissed the majority into voting against same sex "marriage". |
Well, I know that things may be completely different in Canada, but in the USA a civil union is a lot different than a marriage. Most of these differences are actually determined by federal, not state law, so even in states where gay marriage is legal such couples do not have the same rights as married people. Here are some of those differences:
Source: http://gaylife.about.com/od/samesex...vilmarriage.htm
Question: Why Gay Marriage and Not Civil Unions?
The right to marry is not just about the actual legal ceremony, but an equal right to the extensive list of legal protections awarded to married couples. These benefits given to legally married couples range from tax relief to medical decision making. Civil unions and domestic partnerships may seem like equal unions, but the protections they give to registered couples is often far less than that of marriage.
Answer: So, why do we need gay marriage and not just civil unions? Here are a few reasons:
Number of Legal Benefits:
* Marriage: Over 1,049 federal and state level benefits (see partial list below)
* Civil Unions: Over 300 state level benefits. *No federal protection (see benefit example)
Tax Relief:
* Marriage: Couples can file both federal and state tax returns jointly.
* Civil Unions: Couples can only file jointly in the state of civil registration.
Medical Decisions:
* Marriage: Partners can make emergency medical decisions.
* Civil Unions: Partners can only make medical decisions in the registered state. Partners may not be able to make decisions out of state.
Gifts:
* Marriage: Partners can transfer gifts to each other without tax penalty.
* Civil Unions: Partners do not pay state taxes, but are required to report federal taxes.
Death Benefits:
* Marriage: In the case of a partner's death, the spouse receives any earned Social Security or veteran benefits.
* Civil Unions: Partners do not receive Social Security or any other government benefits in case of death. In the case of the death of former Congressman Gerry Studds, his partner of 15 years was denied the government pension that would have gone to a legally recognized spouse.
Child/Spousal Support:
* Marriage: In case of divorce, individuals may have a legally-binding financial obligation to spouses and children.
* Civil Unions: In the case of dissolution , no such spousal or child benefits are guaranteed or required out of state.
Immigration Rights:
* Marriage: U.S. citizens and legal residents can sponsor their spouses and family members for immigration.
* Civil Unions: U.S. citizens and legal residents cannot sponsor non-legal spouses or family members.
According to a report given to the Office of the General Counsel of the U.S. General Accounting Office, here are a few of the 1,138 benefits the United States government provides to legally married couples:
Access to Military Stores
Assumption of Spouse's Pension
Bereavement Leave
Immigration
Insurance Breaks
Medical Decisions on Behalf of Partner
Sick Leave to Care for Partner
Social Security Survivor Benefits
Tax Breaks
Veteran's Discounts
Visitation of Partner in Hospital or Prison
Here are a few of the state level benefits within the United States:
Assumption of Spouse's Pension
Automatic Inheritance
Automatic Housing Lease Transfer
Bereavement Leave
Burial Determination
Child Custody
Crime Victim's Recovery Benefits
Divorce Protections
Domestic Violence Protection
Exemption from Property Tax on Partner's Death
Immunity from Testifying Against Spouse
Insurance Breaks
Joint Adoption and Foster Care
Joint Bankruptcy
Joint Parenting (Insurance Coverage, School Records)
Medical Decisions on Behalf of Partner
Certain Property Rights
Reduced Rate Memberships
Sick Leave to Care for Partner
Visitation of Partner's Children
Visitation of Partner in Hospital or Prison
Wrongful Death (Loss of Consort) Benefits
So this is the reason why many same sex couples desire marriage, especially marriage that would be recognized at the federal level. Others feel "second class" that their relationship should have a different name than their heterosexual counterparts.
My thought is that anyone should be allowed to marry, and that all marriages should have the same rights. Many people here in California disagree with that concept, so I just wanted to get some opinions from people who live in a country where it is legal.
Maybe it would help others here to understand why same sex marriage works elsewhere, or maybe it would help me to understand why it does not. Thanks again for your comments! :) |
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| Yohan |
Simple solution would be to have marriages for heteros and civil unions for gays with equal rights and benefits for both.
Take away the religious reasons for objection. Everyone is happy |
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| Spam |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yohan
Simple solution would be to have marriages for heteros and civil unions for gays with equal rights and benefits for both.
Take away the religious reasons for objection. Everyone is happy |
The gays will say that even if it's 'equal' it's not 'equal' until it's called "marriage".
Apparently, 'equal, but different' isn't good enough.
As long as religious leaders aren't forced to perform homosexual-marriage ceremonies, and are not forced to provide their property for said ceremonies, I say who cares?
It's not my place to judge others based on their lifestyle. Whether I think it's immoral or not, I do plenty of my own immoral things, so who am I to judge? If you care that much, personally convince these people of your own personal beliefs. Militantly opposing every decision you don't with protests and marches while screaming hatred and vitriol against people who do things you disagree with doesn't help anyone.
Besides, just because a government allows something to happen doesn't mean God recognizes the union. So if you're THAT against it, you can always keep yourself comfortable at night with that knowledge. |
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| Sorin.16v |
This is TranceAddict, not a political forum. We can't change the outcome of the vote, and what I can tell you is that you live in a complex society, and people were given the right to vote on an issue. In a democracy, the majority vote wins, and the people have decided against it.
Those were all obvious facts, I agree with the vote, even though it doesn't really affect me. Why? Because I believe marriage should only be between a man and a woman. I have no problem with gays, as long as they don't hit on me, etc. They can live together, hold hands, display affection, wear whatever they want, etc. I just simply don't agree with them being married, and I believe the issue with gay marriage(and this vote against it) is not related to the legal issues and benefits, it's simply because marriage has, for many centuries been a bond between a man and a woman, and that's the end of that.
In my opinion, if you want the legal benefits of marriage in the US, simply invent a new word to replace gay marriage(civic union is a good candidate). It will have a much better chance of being accepted.
This is just my opinion, and if I didn't have a lot of time on my hands this morning, I wouldnt've bothered to post it.
I applaud the people of California for doing what everyone expected them to do, and I wish the Gay Communities of California good luck in the fight for their rights. |
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