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Discussion: Production in Ableton... Why does it sound so bad??? (pg. 2)
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| Terrence Parker |
Post from Tarekith (http://www.abletonlivedj.com/forum/)
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Ok, here goes. I tested Live 7.1 versus Logic 8.0. As we are talking about overall sound quality and not timing issues (and not saying there are any), I ran the test using three audio loops all at the same tempo of 120 BPM. I also tried this test using projects that contained up to 10 audio loops, but the results were identical, so I'm going to discuss the 3 loops test in order to save my bandwidth, as I'm making all files available for DL:
http://tarekith.com/assets/Live7VsLogic8.zip
These are just random audio loops from my collection, I tried to pick loops that not only sounded decent together, but also demonstrated a lot of dynamics and frequency spread to make audible comparisons easier. All three loops are 24bit/44.1kHz wav files, and exactly 4 bars long at 120BPM. I placed each loop on it's own stereo audio track in both Live and Logic, and set the track faders to -6.0dBFS for all tracks in both apps. The following additional settings were used:
- Both apps latency set to 512 samples.
- Live 7 uses the equivalent of a 3dB pan law, so Logic was set to -3dB Compensated.
- Both projects set to 24bit/44.1kHz default.
- Files in Live were not warped, and did not have Fade on.
Here is the Live Project screenshot:
Here is the Logic Project screenshot:
At this point playback of both projects sounded identical to my ears, at numerous volume tests, using both Mackie HR824 speakers, and my Shure E3c and Sony MDR v700DJ headphones. So I next rendered (Live) and bounced (Logic) the projects down, in both cases choosing the output format to be 24bit/44.1kHz wav files, non-normalized, with no dither. These were then loaded into Logic 8 on seperate tracks, as you can see they look identical:
Listening comparison once again made the two files sound 100% identical, having my wife randomly solo each track while listening through my Sony headphones with my back turned, I was unable to tell any difference in audio quality no matter which was solo'd.
HOWEVER...
As I started to get more scientific in my comparisons, I discovered that there WERE differences between the files. I flipped the phase of the Logic waveform and played the two files back simultaneously. This resulted in audible (err... or not) silence, I could not hear anything as the two files were cancelling. BUT, looking at the master meter in Logic, I could see that some signal was playing back, albeit VERY quietly. As you can see in the screen shot below, using the Inspector XL spectrum analyzer, there are some very low level differences in the files:
It's important to look at the dB scale in the plug in before jumping to conclusions. In the main audible range of human hearing, the difference between the two signals is almost at -90dB, which is only 6dB above the absolute noise floor of your standard CD quality (i.e. 16bit) wav file. This is also below the dither level that would be in the file, had we applied any (and dither is almost always applied to the files you will hear in the real world). So, while there IS a difference between the renders of Live 7 and Logic 8 now, that difference is:
- For all intents inaudible, being well below the average music signal in todays music.
- Likely obscured by dither, had we applied any.
- Primarily in the low end of the audio spectrum, well below 250Hz, where the ear is least sensitive.
Anyway, the main conclusion I would draw based on these tests, is that there is no audible difference in sound quality between Live 7 and Logic 8, though they are not producing bit for bit identical copies. So, have fun arguing about the test I ran, I'm off to go shopping with the wife, fun. Not. Smile
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Source: http://abletonlivedj.com/forum/view...c+live&start=45 |
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| Lolo |
need more proof?? You should get in touch with skilled artists, probably... LOL jk.
Well this is clear that people using Ableton now are just too lazy to press ctrl-j and freeze/flatten their stuff, which results in harsh sounding tracks, because they can't eq or else their cpu will stop.
Having almost anything printed onto audio tracks affects your workflow the good way and organizes your job, most of the time. I kept saying this to our musicians, but they wouldn't believe me. Which is why they all need a full spec quad core monster and still sound harsh.
Your point of view reminds me of that big reason debate a few years ago... did it naturally sound harsh or not...
That is quite simply another debate for me... there are artists out there who'd better get skilled and learn how to mix, how to place their speakers, how to listen to their ears. In short, they'd better come and read the TA producer pages :-)
Listen to that Josh Gabriel album, even if it's not your thing. It doesn't sound harsh at all, though it's been entirely produced into Live.
I've been constantly switching back and forth between logic and live recently. The main differences are in terms of features, not in terms of sound. |
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| Eric J |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lolo
I've been constantly switching back and forth between logic and live recently. The main differences are in terms of features, not in terms of sound. |
As an experienced producer, can you tell me, in your opinion, what are the missing features that keep you from switching over to Live totally? Obviously Logic's built in synths and effects are really good, but Live's audio manipulation is miles ahead of Logic's. What keeps you switching back and forth between the two? |
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| Lolo |
I already do entire productions from scratch into both apps.
I like both equally. I can't choose. It truly depends on the mood. But one thing's sure: if I need to go fast, that's with Ableton Live. But if I need a good Subtractive synth, you won't see me rely on Analog. I'm just not a fan, while ES2 sounds great to my ears. But I don't want to choose between those two.
If I had Protools, you'd see me making entire productions in it. I should start in melodyne now.
And to be honest, you are for the least as much experienced as I am, if not more. :-) |
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| Eric J |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lolo
And to be honest, you are for the least as much experienced as I am, if not more. :-) |
Thanks, that may or may not be true, though I certainly wish I had your discography under my belt! :) |
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| Brownsound |
| The Nine Inch Nails album Year Zero was also produced entirely in Ableton Live. |
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| kitphillips |
| Yeah, I suspect it has more to do with ableton being the first DAW a lot of people use, and being readily available on torrents. The same can't be said for logic or cubase. Ableton's a small easy download for the piratical, and a relatively cheap option for the upstanding. |
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| Storyteller |
I took a shot a Ableton and found it harder to make a clean production than in any other software I have encountered thus far. Although that doesn't tell much in terms of quality of the program I can understand that more people could have the same problem I do. Of course I've seen people do brilliant productions on Ableton Live as well.
The problem is probably somewhere in between Ableton and it's user. Some programs just don't quite work for certain people. I like the Ableton workflow (it has a more or less hybrid tracker/sequencer feel to me, and since I'm primarily using trackers for composing the step to Ableton was really easy) but somehow it influenced my sound design in a negative way. |
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| david.michael |
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
Yeah, I suspect it has more to do with ableton being the first DAW a lot of people use, and being readily available on torrents. The same can't be said for logic or cubase. Ableton's a small easy download for the piratical, and a relatively cheap option for the upstanding. |
Agreed... it's likely along the same vein as "FL Studio Syndrome". There's nothing inherently wrong with the audio engine or rendering... I think it's a more conceptual "problem" than technical. |
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| Waza |
| Well if your using one hit samples you should not be getting those harsh sounds coming out should you? your not time stretching them to much. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by Waza
Well if your using one hit samples you should not be getting those harsh sounds coming out should you? your not time stretching them to much. |
Ableton is set to warp samples automatically, so even one-hits can get some "graininess" to them if you don't turn the warping off. |
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