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Discussion: Production in Ableton... Why does it sound so bad??? (pg. 5)
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| Zombie0729 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Blake_Jarrell
IMO honestly Abletons sound has nothing to do with its warping engine, (unless you are of course stretching stuff, but Abletons time stretching blows all other DAWs out of the water.) Ableton just has a simpler, more efficient, thus inferior mixdown algorithm (the way it SUMS audio in the master channel) when compared to other DAWs. The reason it has this is because it is meant for LIVE performance, which requires extreme efficiency and CPU budgeting (things like streaming audio files directly from your hard drive instead of commiting them to CPU and the dumbed-down GUI are all purposely done to keep Ableton running at optimal performance in a LIVE setting.)
The work around for this is to mixdown tracks written in Ableton in another program. I rewire Ableton into Logic and I am able to get that liquidy Logic sound while still reaping the benefits of the fast workflow of Ableton for my audio stuff. MIDI and effects processing is all done in Logic.
Someone mentioned that NIN YearZero was written entirely in Ableton, while this is true, I'm almost certain it was mixed down in Protools or mixing desk. |
ableton was without a doubt built initially for live performance. the 64bit summing engine wasn't introduced until 7 versions later lol, i'm sure that says it all. However by defualt in ableton the warp method is set to 'beats' and again that is because 1.) its the most CPU friendly algorithm and 2.) live was built for LIVE use (holy redundancy). However if you bounce your complex lead line from midi to audio(via render/freeze/resample whatever) you'll notice huge changes in the sound of your audio as you go thru the algorithms. Beats by default checks transients and has a sharper velocity curve thats why drums cut thru with beats and why when leads are put thru the beats algorithm you'll hear an odd transient on your plucks or whatever that isn't there on other algorithms. If you turn ableton's warping OFF on all your loops and render dry you won't notice a difference between ableton and other DAW's but when things are warped its a different story (warped incorrectly i should say). |
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| flutlicht junky |
Is it also alot to do with the native effects? I find they have a sharp / metallic edge to them that sounds really good, esp on high frequency sounds.
The native plugins definitely have their own character and are of high enough quality for ppl yo not have to consider buying further plugins. |
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| SgtFoo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Blake_Jarrell
IMO honestly Abletons sound has nothing to do with its warping engine, (unless you are of course stretching stuff, but Abletons time stretching blows all other DAWs out of the water.) Ableton just has a simpler, more efficient, thus inferior mixdown algorithm (the way it SUMS audio in the master channel) when compared to other DAWs. The reason it has this is because it is meant for LIVE performance, which requires extreme efficiency and CPU budgeting (things like streaming audio files directly from your hard drive instead of commiting them to CPU and the dumbed-down GUI are all purposely done to keep Ableton running at optimal performance in a LIVE setting.)
The work around for this is to mixdown tracks written in Ableton in another program. I rewire Ableton into Logic and I am able to get that liquidy Logic sound while still reaping the benefits of the fast workflow of Ableton for my audio stuff. MIDI and effects processing is all done in Logic.
Someone mentioned that NIN YearZero was written entirely in Ableton, while this is true, I'm almost certain it was mixed down in Protools or mixing desk. |
Also Agree to this entirely... and Yes, YearZero was mixed in Pro-Tools. |
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| SgtFoo |
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
But based on what kenneth was saying, I believe that the harsh sound he's talking about is probably coming from people being incompetant at warping. |
also a great point |
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| Sean Walsh |
| It's likely lazy producers that are just dragging in loops of whatever BPM from Vengeance or whatever other sample CD they torrented, and then using them as-is in their mixdown. |
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| echosystm |
| i think its because ableton isnt pro like cubase and logic |
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| EgosXII |
| quote: | Originally posted by echosystm
i think its because ableton isnt pro like cubase and logic |
:stongue: you've found the missing link :p |
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| kitphillips |
| quote: | Originally posted by Blake_Jarrell
I read Tarekith's comparison but hes only mixing down 3 audio loops, like you say in your later post, it doesnt take into account:
Fixed pan laws
Fixed fader curves
Clipping behaviour (maybe clips are handled better by logic?)
Dither (or lack thereof) (included as of version 6)
lack of crossfades in arrangement view (fixed in version 8)
Inferior inbuilt effects
and most importantly how each program handles the processing of effects, even when using identical plug ins.
so its not really showing the whole story, even though it is very interesting.
I was explaining that Ableton is optimized for Live situations, thus has features that are more efficient and could be the reason why the mixdown may suffer. whats so hard to understand about that? |
Honestly though, all that stuff won't make an actual difference to the mix in the end. The fader curves and pan laws just change the way you work not the way it sounds in the end. You can still get the same result out of ableton as you would in logic. Except the possibly inferior effects, which I don't use anyway, but I admit that I'm not a huge fan of the in built effects.
The way it handles the processing of effects even when using identical plugins is the same as logic/cubase/PT/Reaper/Sonar/FL/anything. There IS NO DIFFERENCE. That's what I was saying was silly about your post. Theres no difference in the summing engine, and no difference in the way it "handles effects". Tarekith's test proves that almost beyond doubt...
I'm happy to hear if you have any other ideas about what might be causing differences in the mixdown, but just saying "Its optimised for live use and is therefore inferior in terms of sound quality" is really silly IMO.
Again, I put it down to user error, rather than any actual difference in the audio engine. |
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| Knowland |
| Timestretch with Elastique is a rig at best. It will make everything sound different. As to why this is affecting Ableton producers I could only guess it's because they think it solves all their problems of not having correctly pitched samples? If it's used it's going to inflect Elastique's tonal character. So your best bet is to Mask the sound with reverb or some other technique. |
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| Blake_Jarrell |
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
Honestly though, all that stuff won't make an actual difference to the mix in the end. The fader curves and pan laws just change the way you work not the way it sounds in the end. You can still get the same result out of ableton as you would in logic. Except the possibly inferior effects, which I don't use anyway, but I admit that I'm not a huge fan of the in built effects.
The way it handles the processing of effects even when using identical plugins is the same as logic/cubase/PT/Reaper/Sonar/FL/anything. There IS NO DIFFERENCE. That's what I was saying was silly about your post. Theres no difference in the summing engine, and no difference in the way it "handles effects". Tarekith's test proves that almost beyond doubt...
I'm happy to hear if you have any other ideas about what might be causing differences in the mixdown, but just saying "Its optimised for live use and is therefore inferior in terms of sound quality" is really silly IMO.
Again, I put it down to user error, rather than any actual difference in the audio engine. |
honestly the only way i would be sold on his test is if someone made a full blown song identically in both DAWs. until then, i'll rely on my experience that the tracks I've mixed down in logic just flat out sound better to my ears than ones ive mixed down in Ableton. |
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| Subtle |
Just a question to you Abletoners, got nothing to do with the topic though.
But how do one automate from the session view ?
I can record automation and it ends up in the arrangement view just fine, but i want to transfer the automation from the arrangement and back into the session clips.
I tried to consolidate the 4 bars of automation i wanted from the arrangement view and dragging it back into the session view, but the automation not playing then.
Im trying to automate simpler in this case. |
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| kitphillips |
You have to use clip envelopes. So go to the clip and then click on "e" and draw in the envelope. Look it up in the manual if confused about what I mean.
Theres no way to actually "record" automation by hand in the session view that I know of, it needs to be drawn unfortunately (which is a major gripe of ableton users) |
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