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This is how to talk to Iran (pg. 3)
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| Alex |
| Yes. I believe in God, therefore all my opinions on everything are automatically wrong. :stongue: |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by Alex
Yes. I believe in God, therefore all my opinions on everything are automatically wrong. :stongue: |
Seriously - even on things like diplomacy and economics!
And why the focus on how the Iranian regime reacted to the speech? Of course they reacted negatively - their survival more or less depends on remaining opposed to the US. The speech was aimed at the people of Iran, as can be seen by the Administration's keenness to see how widespread the video is being embedded and linked. |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
Seriously - even on things like diplomacy and economics!
And why the focus on how the Iranian regime reacted to the speech? Of course they reacted negatively - their survival more or less depends on remaining opposed to the US. The speech was aimed at the people of Iran, as can be seen by the Administration's keenness to see how widespread the video is being embedded and linked. |
Because he also addressed the leaders in his speech. Here's the Ayatollah's reaction today:
| quote: | "They chant the slogan of change but no change is seen in practice. We haven't seen any change," Khamenei said in a speech before a crowd of tens of thousands in the northeastern holy city of Mashhad.
Khamenei asked how Obama could congratulate Iranians on the new year and accuse the country of supporting terrorism and seeking nuclear weapons in the same message.
Khamenei said there has been no change even in Obama's language compared to that of his predecessor.
"He (Obama) insulted the Islamic Republic of Iran from the first day. If you are right that change has come, where is that change? What is the sign of that change? Make it clear for us what has changed."
He also accused the U.S. of provoking ethnic tension in Iran and said Washington's accusations that Iran is seeking nuclear weapons are a sign of U.S. hostility. Iran says its nuclear program is only for peaceful purposes, like energy production, not for building weapons.
"Have you released Iranian assets? Have you lifted oppressive sanctions? Have you given up mudslinging and making accusations against the great Iranian nation and its officials? Have you given up your unconditional support for the Zionist regime? Even the language remains unchanged," Khamenei said.
Khamenei, wearing a black turban and dark robes, said America was hated around the world for its arrogance, as the crowd chanted ''Death to America." |
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/200...ma.html?_r=2&hp
This is how it works. WE must make concessions that THEY agree with in order to improve relations. Jimmy Carter style appeasement that got us nowhere fast is being recycled. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: |
"They chant the slogan of change but no change is seen in practice. We haven't seen any change," Khamenei said in a speech before a crowd of tens of thousands in the northeastern holy city of Mashhad.
Khamenei asked how Obama could congratulate Iranians on the new year and accuse the country of supporting terrorism and seeking nuclear weapons in the same message.
Khamenei said there has been no change even in Obama's language compared to that of his predecessor.
"He (Obama) insulted the Islamic Republic of Iran from the first day. If you are right that change has come, where is that change? What is the sign of that change? Make it clear for us what has changed."
He also accused the U.S. of provoking ethnic tension in Iran and said Washington's accusations that Iran is seeking nuclear weapons are a sign of U.S. hostility. Iran says its nuclear program is only for peaceful purposes, like energy production, not for building weapons.
"Have you released Iranian assets? Have you lifted oppressive sanctions? Have you given up mudslinging and making accusations against the great Iranian nation and its officials? Have you given up your unconditional support for the Zionist regime? Even the language remains unchanged," Khamenei said. |
Khamenei has a good point there. From history, USA has to make the first step here, not Iran. Though I doubt just how friendly he will get with America, based on the fact that he is a conservative. Iranian conservatives will be highly unlikely to pursue democratic changes. Not because they are not democratic, but because their own hardliners can depose them for it.
As a result, this friendship can only go so far. Obviously Obama will not get what he wants to achieve in Iran through compromise - democratic principles. That would mean suicide for the Supreme Iranian leadership. Lifting the Iranian sanctions will be giving victory to Iran, and with a prospect of receiving nothing in return - Iran will not give up its nuclear programme - I expect absolutely no change. And the fault will be of Iran, not USA. Why? Because lifting the sactions (which arent working in the first place, by the way) is going to do two things: a) empower conservative Iranian leadership as their little "victory" and b) provide no gains for American leadership, as Iran is highly unlikely to give up its nuclear energy programme or its conservative system.
Any American concessions will be a victory for Iran, who will be less obliged to follow up with concessions of their own. Tehran has nothing to gain through concessions to the Americans, only ways to erode their own regime. Iran is in a good position, knowing full well that America is hit hard by the economic downturn, and little progress in Afghanistan and bogged down in Iraq.
Most importantly, United States will not give up Israel - the enemy of the current Iranian leadership and the core issue between Iran and United States. So how is this compromise going to work - well, its going to be through a miracle or no change is going to materialize.
If United States cant bring itself to lift sanctions on Cuba, how would one expect them to be lifted for Iran? Obama claims dialogue, but in reality he can't give them concessions, knowing full well that Iran needs more in return than just lifting of sactions. These economic sanctions arent hurting Tehran, who have adjusted to them by now.
Both sides have been vague in their approach and lacking concrete action in the matter, with all indications pointing to more of the same in the nearest future. It appears that both sides are playing the waiting game, hoping that the other side will make the first move. One can compare the situation to a chess game, with both sides trying to avoid making a move that may be regretted later.
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| Clovis |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
Because he also addressed the leaders in his speech. Here's the Ayatollah's reaction today:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/200...ma.html?_r=2&hp
This is how it works. WE must make concessions that THEY agree with in order to improve relations. Jimmy Carter style appeasement that got us nowhere fast is being recycled. |
Good God you're ing retarded. This is not appeasement.
Do you not understand the forces at work here? When we declare that Iran is in the "Axis of Evil" the regime's grip shoots up 50 points. It's very easy to make the case for why they need a nuclear weapon, more guns, more tanks, more missiles, less rights, less dissent, and less freedom when labeled an "evil" country by a world superpower with closer ties to Israel than any other nation, a superpower that unilaterally invades countries to change regimes at will and supports military incursions by Israel into its neighbors no matter what.
When we cut them off, when we demonize them, it plays RIGHT into the hands of the Iranian regime. The more fear instilled into the people, the easier it is for the regime to do as it pleases. The more we seek to punish them, the more likely the Iranian people will go along with the regime's plans due to the percieved threat.
When the president of the United States extends such an olive branch, mainly to the PEOPLE of Iran, it's a thorn in the side of the regime. Just look at their reply. They're ting bricks trying to spin it in a negative light. The regime's response was so predictable it's hilarious. They need to constantly reassert the US as the agressor, as the threat, in order to ensure that their support remains high, just as Bush needed to do the same in order to sell the war in Iraq to us.
8+ years of not talking, of demonizing, of "axis of evil" talk has made the regime more powerful than ever. Iran is fast becoming the major player in that region in conjunction with Israel. We're going to HAVE to deal with them one way or another, and so far we've accomplished all.
We don't have to make dangerous concessions of any kind if we keep this type of approach up. If we allow Iran to become integrated into the international community and strenghten the ties we DO want, in trade, in commerce, in culture and technology, the regime's power will errode over time. There are loud voices of dissent in Iran, and it will become more and more difficult to suppress them if we continue to push this approach and show that we are NOT the great satan.
The alternative to this approach has gotten us where we are today. Iran on the verge of a nuclear powerplant and with a very easy case for why they need a nuclear weapon in the future. The United States demonized. Opposition voices silenced completely and thousands imprisoned.
Obama's address was absolutely flawless in tone and message. This is diplomacy, something Americans may be unfamiliar with given the past 8 years. |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
This is how it works. WE must make concessions that THEY agree with in order to improve relations. Jimmy Carter style appeasement that got us nowhere fast is being recycled. |
Right and George Bush saber rattling will get us oh so far... |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by Clovis
Good God you're ing retarded. This is not appeasement.
Do you not understand the forces at work here? When we declare that Iran is in the "Axis of Evil" the regime's grip shoots up 50 points. It's very easy to make the case for why they need a nuclear weapon, more guns, more tanks, more missiles, less rights, less dissent, and less freedom when labeled an "evil" country by a world superpower with closer ties to Israel than any other nation, a superpower that unilaterally invades countries to change regimes at will and supports military incursions by Israel into its neighbors no matter what.
When we cut them off, when we demonize them, it plays RIGHT into the hands of the Iranian regime. The more fear instilled into the people, the easier it is for the regime to do as it pleases. The more we seek to punish them, the more likely the Iranian people will go along with the regime's plans due to the percieved threat.
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Absolutely and 100% true. On the money and well articulated. It's crazy to see so many people not get this.
I'm not sure if the17sss has a real gripe here or he just hates Obama and has to castigate any mention of him. Because US policy toward Iran thusfar? Not working.
And Jesus Christ, comparing this to Jimmy Carter is just historical ignorance and naivety run rampant. |
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| Clovis |
| P.S. 17ss, my "god damn you're retarded" is more about my own outrage at how a reasonably smart fellow like yourself doesn't see it like I do, I know you're not actually ing retarded. :gsmile: |
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| djjoshuaallen |
| quote: | Originally posted by Clovis
What do you mean "those"?
By appealing mostly directly to the people of Iran he is directing said "reason" exactly where it should go.
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Im not sure what was said that "appealed" to the iranian people. Like somebody already mentioned in this thread, the only thing that would really appeal to them is if we were do no longer support israel. Additionally, they view these types of things in a completly different light in their culture, while we watch this and think we are doing the right thing, they watch and interpret completly different. |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by djjoshuaallen
Im not sure what was said that "appealed" to the iranian people. Like somebody already mentioned in this thread, the only thing that would really appeal to them is if we were do no longer support israel. |
That's just not even true. The Iranian people don't really care, the government does. |
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| cmay119 |
Assuming Obama is president for 2 terms, do you guys believe that real diplomacy could be achieved with Iran in that amount of time? I respect what Obama is trying to do here, this was one of my major reasons to vote for him. It would just be a sad situation if we haven't broken down many barriers in that amount of time, and the next president undermines all of Obama's efforts on this.
What do you guys think? |
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