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1999 vs. 2009 (pg. 3)
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| Kismet7 |
| Its all about the 50s 60s 70s and 80s. Screw 99 vs 2009, neither of them win. |
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| Nemesis44 |
Take some of this with a pinch of salt as I am slightly fuzzy after gigs last night, getting to bed at 6:30 only to get up for work at 8:30, but the general feeling is there.
To be fair I don’t just think its trance that has a problem. I think music as we know it has a problem and it’s mainly down to the industry big shots.
There is not a single genre that isn’t affected by this (well maybe a few really ones).
Trance, DnB, House, Techno, RnB, Hip Hop, Breaks, Country and Western, Folk, Blues, Rock, Indie, Grunge you name it.
Hell, some music genres re-invent the wheel. Take new age metal wtf is that? Sure, you record it in the studio and you have that distinctive sound, but hear the group live and they sound like any other metal band because the studio trickery is gone. Nothing new, nothing that hasn’t been done before.
Don’t even get me started on the pop charts. We are being programmed by record companies in what we buy and like, radio stations get paid to play certain songs so often that people will actually get accustomed to the sound.
It’s the industry that is sick, not trance per se, it’s just a casualty of a bigger problem.
Another problem is the sheer volume of tracks out there, presented with too much choice you can find yourself too numb to make any choice at all. Back in the day there was less to choose from or listen to and therefore it was easier to grow fond of tracks because in a way they perhaps meant more to you.
The event of the MP3 has made music disposable, there is nothing that you can touch or feel and there is no sense of ownership, unlike owning a vinyl. It was something real that you could touch; smell and it also had its own characteristics, not to mention a fuller sound.
The iPod generation, forget the Hardware vs Software Discussion, the compression quality of a lot of MP3s totally negates that altogether, if people are happy with that you can sure as hell forget that they will care about the perceived synth quality (Not aimed at anyone in particular… Kis cough met cough).
If I am to cast blame on a nation it would be the Americans (Don’t get me wrong I still love you), since the acceptance of trance, albeit on a small scale over the pond it has gone down hill. I have often that you guys seem to enjoy prog a lot more than actual full on trance. The big boys noticed this and followed suite, this the likes of Armin and Tiesto became more prog orientated compared to the days prior to 2004. Take Sasha for example, a lot bigger in the US than he is in Europe, same with Digweed. Prog isn’t that big in the UK and tends to be viewed as warm up music for a trance event rather than the main event itself. There is good prog out there though it has to be said and perhaps we should thank you for that but I take the forming of Gabriel and Dresden as a personal insult, what a load of twoddle, meaningless non eventful music, never liked, never will. The worst possible aspect of prog, Marcus Shultz on the other hand knows how to make dancefloor worthy tunes.
House music has a massive grip at the moment and seems to be the only music form the US and Europe can agree on, but it won’t last forever, as there are big differences even there.
If the US could just shake of its RnB and Hip Hop Influence and people would be a little more daring in terms of trying out other music then Trance would be in for an exciting time and I know you guys would definitely be up for the challenge.
The internet is a great thing, it put me in touch with you guys for a start, but it has its draw backs. We have to work less for our music and we can surround ourselves with it thus taking away the novelty.
Someone needs to shake up the Trance industry and then once they have made it, stick to their guns unlike some of the newer talents who started out great but then fell in with the masses i.e. Sander Van Doorn. A great producer in his own right and I have great respect for him, but I enjoy his older productions a lot more than his new ones, to be fair to the man though, I think it’s more a case of mainstream becoming him rather than him going mainstream, but there are others who have definitely sold out to the masses.
Armin and Tiesto may have a lot to answer for but I don’t hate them, and you have to weigh up the good vs the bad to get a true image. We do have a lot to be thankful for I think, as they do introduce people who may otherwise not have encountered trance to the music we love (or love to hate) and without them you may find that we would have even less to be happy about than the current state of affairs.
Cheers
Nem |
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| Nemesis44 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kismet7
Its all about the 50s 60s 70s and 80s. Screw 99 vs 2009, neither of them win. |
Dude, I can't get my head around you, you totally diss software and promote hardware, but don't actually own any. You seem to dislike trance (Or perhaps I miss understood) but attend a trance forum, what sort of music do you actually make and can I hear some?
You bear the hallmarks of total genius or complete fruit basket and I can't work out which. :)
All joking aside, I would actually like to hear what you do, searched for tracks under your name but couldn't find any.
I don't disagree that they are some mighty fine decades for music however, although it's funny how a lot of people who grew up in the 80s look back in shame he he.
Cheers
Nem |
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| Raphie |
90's trance like BBE "7 days and 1 week"
here are some of the "rules"
Offbeat bassline
TR909 drum kit
PROGRAM your drums,don't use loops
Don't use ANYTHING Vengeance
use a juno 106 "Alice DJ" type lead
double kick on every 16 measures
clap rather than snare.
strings as backing
Choir with trancegate
NO sidechain. |
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| Beatflux |
| quote: | Originally posted by Stephen Wiley
My biggest gripe is it seems that producers for Trance and most likely other genres already have a course plotted out in their head. Fill the intro for a minute or two, do a little break, start pounding away, throw in a bigger break and build it up, and then pound away some more and eventually out.
Tracks simply were not made that way back in the day. They had a much more unique feeling to them which made a lot of people happy as the tracks were pumped out.
Somewhere along the way, around the turn of the century, people started in with this whole "progressive" nonsense and Trance hasn't been the same since. Every track more or less has the same structure as any other in todays day. Are there tracks that stand out? Of course, but they don't come close to standing out like the tracks did back in the late 90's which I deeply miss. |
Even if you had to use the same cliched trance structure for every song you produced, there are still an infinite number of variables that can make your tune stand out. Variations at the macro level where you are talking about intro,outro,etc. are less important to variety than those structural elements at the micro level(ex: melody, drum patterns, phrase structure,etc.)
A track with a poorly crafted melody is going to be bad whether or not the other elements are original. |
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| Subtle |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nemesis44
Another problem is the sheer volume of tracks out there, presented with too much choice you can find yourself too numb to make any choice at all. Back in the day there was less to choose from or listen to and therefore it was easier to grow fond of tracks because in a way they perhaps meant more to you.
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Yeah exactly. |
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| Beatflux |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nemesis44
Don’t even get me started on the pop charts. We are being programmed by record companies in what we buy and like, radio stations get paid to play certain songs so often that people will actually get accustomed to the sound.
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I can't help but think of fashion, how women who want to be in modern styles all of the time constantly have to keep up on what they are told is "Hot." This is a symptom of another function of human nature where people will prefer what others prefer, and also things they've heard or seen before! |
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| Stef |
| quote: | Originally posted by palm
same thing, pluss theres the NFL or NBA or NHL or some other s. and fat females thinking their beatiful, what a country. |
Factor in a few chain fast food corporations, and that's pretty much it. |
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| DJ RANN |
Really interesting to see other peoples point of discussion for this period.
For me, 1999 was the year it all went horribly wrong Dance music (or "trance" as it then became called - but that's another discussion...;) ) . I can nearly pinpoint it to a particular record:
System F - out of the blue
I remember hearing for the first time in a (very good) club in late 1998 and thinking, "oh that breakdown is just too over the top and that's just to much fromage for one piece of vinyl". Suddenly, track after track came out in the same vein, some better than others in fairness, but a model had been established which set the formula for a particular type of trance that although popular and well produced in many cases, was so formulaic and instantly disposable.
It;s not fair to say it's all the fault of Ferry or that track as there were many things leading up to it and that new generation of ravers were just discovering dance music (and so was the new media) as a mainstream phenominon, but that was certainly the poster boy track for that new and crap wave.
I remember going to clubs and hearing the same few tracks, from the same few labels - diversity hugely suffered as the scene got commercialised and big sponsors started to want to get involved in reaching the target demographic of young people with disposable income and little responsibilties. It also attracted a different crowd, that pushed a lot of the serious clubbers to other less mainstream/underground events or to hate the scene in total. I probably knew about 30 people who moved on from the scene that year, that were way too young to do so but hated what it became.
A classic example of this was creamfields (the first one in 98). Probably the best night of my life. Then next year, big money got involved, sponsors wanted more of the cake and it resulted in creamfields not happening, but two competing and rather events taking place.
That was the beginnning of the end of trance in the UK at least, and look at it now.....
Prog was a slightly different thing - I remember really loving prog and splitting my hard earned money between buying prog recods or trance. But then people like peace division, pole folder, bedrock who started out excellent, began releasing records that were basically just percussion at like 123 bpm. Honestly, I picked up one record at that period and though it was a sample loop vinyl. the music got soooo boring and predictable, until it became a dirty word, just like trance did a couple of years later.
Since then there's been ups and downs musically - some gems in that period, but nothing like the level of quality tracks back in the mid to late 90's. The club scene in london apart from a few quality venues and events is all but dead. Ibiza has had many troubled filled years, but most americans going don't really realize this becuase they didn't know what it was like before which in fairness is great for them - ignorance, sometimes, is bliss.
I too don't hate the big boys - they got there because they are ing talented - did they sell out? Yes, but I suspect they knew that and you got to real about it: you're a respected "legend" and "pioneer" - why wouldn't you want ot make a pile of money off it? You put in the time, you built it up you contributed to the scene, possibly built it - everyone else gets to cash in on their jobs why not you?
My feeling is that everything is cyclical, and in my relatively short time in this music, I've seen and am seeing things coming back around - the thing we have to do as producers and DJ's, is to take the good and not repeat the bad. Learn from where we went wrong and push again what we did right :) |
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| parafrNalia |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nemesis44
Dude, I can't get my head around you, you totally diss software and promote hardware, but don't actually own any. You seem to dislike trance (Or perhaps I miss understood) but attend a trance forum, what sort of music do you actually make and can I hear some?
You bear the hallmarks of total genius or complete fruit basket and I can't work out which. :)
All joking aside, I would actually like to hear what you do, searched for tracks under your name but couldn't find any.
I don't disagree that they are some mighty fine decades for music however, although it's funny how a lot of people who grew up in the 80s look back in shame he he.
Cheers
Nem |
Well, total genius is defnitely not it... what's left? Oh... fruit basket. Yep, fruit basket. |
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| Nemesis44 |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Really interesting to see other peoples point of discussion for this period.
For me, 1999 was the year it all went horribly wrong Dance music (or "trance" as it then became called - but that's another discussion...;) ) . I can nearly pinpoint it to a particular record:
System F - out of the blue
I remember hearing for the first time in a (very good) club in late 1998 and thinking, "oh that breakdown is just too over the top and that's just to much fromage for one piece of vinyl". Suddenly, track after track came out in the same vein, some better than others in fairness, but a model had been established which set the formula for a particular type of trance that although popular and well produced in many cases, was so formulaic and instantly disposable.
It;s not fair to say it's all the fault of Ferry or that track as there were many things leading up to it and that new generation of ravers were just discovering dance music (and so was the new media) as a mainstream phenominon, but that was certainly the poster boy track for that new and crap wave.
I remember going to clubs and hearing the same few tracks, from the same few labels - diversity hugely suffered as the scene got commercialised and big sponsors started to want to get involved in reaching the target demographic of young people with disposable income and little responsibilties. It also attracted a different crowd, that pushed a lot of the serious clubbers to other less mainstream/underground events or to hate the scene in total. I probably knew about 30 people who moved on from the scene that year, that were way too young to do so but hated what it became.
A classic example of this was creamfields (the first one in 98). Probably the best night of my life. Then next year, big money got involved, sponsors wanted more of the cake and it resulted in creamfields not happening, but two competing and rather events taking place.
That was the beginnning of the end of trance in the UK at least, and look at it now.....
Prog was a slightly different thing - I remember really loving prog and splitting my hard earned money between buying prog recods or trance. But then people like peace division, pole folder, bedrock who started out excellent, began releasing records that were basically just percussion at like 123 bpm. Honestly, I picked up one record at that period and though it was a sample loop vinyl. the music got soooo boring and predictable, until it became a dirty word, just like trance did a couple of years later.
Since then there's been ups and downs musically - some gems in that period, but nothing like the level of quality tracks back in the mid to late 90's. The club scene in london apart from a few quality venues and events is all but dead. Ibiza has had many troubled filled years, but most americans going don't really realize this becuase they didn't know what it was like before which in fairness is great for them - ignorance, sometimes, is bliss.
I too don't hate the big boys - they got there because they are ing talented - did they sell out? Yes, but I suspect they knew that and you got to real about it: you're a respected "legend" and "pioneer" - why wouldn't you want ot make a pile of money off it? You put in the time, you built it up you contributed to the scene, possibly built it - everyone else gets to cash in on their jobs why not you?
My feeling is that everything is cyclical, and in my relatively short time in this music, I've seen and am seeing things coming back around - the thing we have to do as producers and DJ's, is to take the good and not repeat the bad. Learn from where we went wrong and push again what we did right :) |
Good post. :)
Nem |
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| lenieNt Force |
| quote: | Originally posted by Stephen Wiley
Somewhere along the way, around the turn of the century, people started in with this whole "progressive" nonsense and Trance hasn't been the same since. Every track more or less has the same structure as any other in todays day. Are there tracks that stand out? Of course, but they don't come close to standing out like the tracks did back in the late 90's which I deeply miss. |
Could you please give some examples of the style you really miss and tracks that stood out? Would be interesting to get some references of what you mean. |
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