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Lawyers. (pg. 3)
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| Fledz |
The problem with arguments on the internet is the lack of a facial expression. Facial expressions are an integral part of any conversation when face to face, and emoticons can only do so much to convey whether you are serious, sarcastic, angry, sad, having a laugh etc.
As for lawyers, this has been discussed to death. There are plenty of good ones but likewise there are plenty of awful ones too. |
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| Joss Weatherby |
| quote: | Originally posted by astroboy
I graduated from law school and most of my friends are lawyers in either large national or medium sized law firms (mostly intellectual property, banking, construction or m&a/commercial litigation). Let me tell you all of them work their butts off, and don't get paid that much at all for the first few years. If someone's on a big corporate matter they're usually in the office til at least 8 or 9 pm. I'm not envious of them in the least. Having said that I've don't know what it's like to work for small firms dealing in personal injury etc.. might be a different kettle of fish. FOr the most part most lawyers I've known/met have been decent people who take their duty to the court quite seriously. |
Yea.
I hate big corporate law firms (I am not talking the legal department of big corps, but law firms that act like corporations).
Its ing hard as to make a name for yourself there and do anything. I have always been a firm believer in starting in the public sector, either at the city, county or state level and then moving into private practice or a private firm. It seems to me that a lot of real world and practical skills are learned from working in either the DA or AG's office, even if its not criminal law stuff.
My dads firm has about 10 people, I think 6 partners and 4 associates. They do a very specific field and they are the best in the state and have cornered the market for it. |
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| astroboy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
Yea.
I hate big corporate law firms (I am not talking the legal department of big corps, but law firms that act like corporations).
Its ing hard as to make a name for yourself there and do anything. I have always been a firm believer in starting in the public sector, either at the city, county or state level and then moving into private practice or a private firm. It seems to me that a lot of real world and practical skills are learned from working in either the DA or AG's office, even if its not criminal law stuff.
My dads firm has about 10 people, I think 6 partners and 4 associates. They do a very specific field and they are the best in the state and have cornered the market for it. |
It depends on what you want to do. The advantage of larger law firms is the amount of money they invest in training you. A law grad's work is billed out at 200 - 300 bucks an hour (of which the grad takes home a fraction probably 50k a year if he's lucky) and the firms still make a loss on them, they only start seeing a return 2 or 3 years down the track when the lawyer is fully trained and being billed out at several times that amount.
Also if you want to get into a field like say M&A, you can only get exposure to the really big deals by working in a larger firm... But good luck trying to spend quality time with your family ;) |
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| Fledz |
Yea I think that's the biggest advantage of large corporate entities, the sheer amount of money they can pump into training you. I would dare say that career progression at the beginning is quicker too due to such a large number of positions being readily available.
You may not be well known and you may be missing that family feel of a small business, but on the bright side you won't have to wait long for a position to become available.
If you start off in a small business, you might find yourself waiting a long time before you progress as those who have the positions won't let go of them lightly. You also will rarely get the same level of training and the monetary rewards will often be less.
It's probably best to start in a big corporation and then move to a small business later on in your career. I started the wrong way round so need to work it a different way. Small "family" types of companies have plenty of their own problems which are the worst for those of us starting at the bottom. |
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| astroboy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fledz
Yea I think that's the biggest advantage of large corporate entities, the sheer amount of money they can pump into training you. I would dare say that career progression at the beginning is quicker too due to such a large number of positions being readily available.
You may not be well known and you may be missing that family feel of a small business, but on the bright side you won't have to wait long for a position to become available.
If you start off in a small business, you might find yourself waiting a long time before you progress as those who have the positions won't let go of them lightly. You also will rarely get the same level of training and the monetary rewards will often be less.
It's probably best to start in a big corporation and then move to a small business later on in your career. I started the wrong way round so need to work it a different way. Small "family" types of companies have plenty of their own problems which are the worst for those of us starting at the bottom. |
You can still get there mate. I met a Mallesons partner at a bar the other day who started at a small firm then moved up.. just have to stay open to opportunities. I think there's going to be a hiring spree in the legal field sometime this year or next year.. a lot of firms cut their intake and even made layoffs because of the GFC. They standardised way career progression works in this industry means there will be a big gap in staff which will be increasingly felt as work starts to pick up. |
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| Fledz |
| quote: | Originally posted by astroboy
You can still get there mate. I met a Mallesons partner at a bar the other day who started at a small firm then moved up.. just have to stay open to opportunities. I think there's going to be a hiring spree in the legal field sometime this year or next year.. a lot of firms cut their intake and even made layoffs because of the GFC. They standardised way career progression works in this industry means there will be a big gap in staff which will be increasingly felt as work starts to pick up. |
I'm not a lawyer :tongue2 I work in the pharmaceutical industry but the corporate structure is the same as in any business.
I'm good actually. One of the big pharmaceutical companies that I work for under a sub-contract is apparently very interested in me after just 6 months, and it helps that they have a position available that they haven't been able to fill, yet I do almost the same job for my company and I do it well (I've got the best sales figure in the country).
I notice them always dropping hints about hiring and I always make it seem like I'm much happier and very content in my company then I really am. That way if (or most likely when) they eventually try and poach me, the offer will be higher :toothless |
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| Joss Weatherby |
| quote: | Originally posted by astroboy
It depends on what you want to do. The advantage of larger law firms is the amount of money they invest in training you. A law grad's work is billed out at 200 - 300 bucks an hour (of which the grad takes home a fraction probably 50k a year if he's lucky) and the firms still make a loss on them, they only start seeing a return 2 or 3 years down the track when the lawyer is fully trained and being billed out at several times that amount.
Also if you want to get into a field like say M&A, you can only get exposure to the really big deals by working in a larger firm... But good luck trying to spend quality time with your family ;) |
Oh, yea for sure, my dad worked at a much larger private firm after he got out of the states AG office... He lost his marriage to my mother over that, he just worked and worked... and worked. Mom couldn't take it, he was just never there, and when he was there he was not there mentally, always on the job.
He is in a much smaller firm now (the one before had 30-40 people in two offices in Seattle and Tacoma) and he has much more free time, he works from home when he can if he isn't on the road.
Thats the only thing that sucks is how much he has to drive, his clients are located all over the state and he likes to do business face to face.
Thats the thing though I want to drive home is, that at least in the US, probably much more so on the West Coast, you can do public stuff and still make a killing in private firms when you get older. You do not make nearly as much out the gate but you do get a lot higher faster when you do make a name for yourself. Sure you might start at 160k but thats where you are going to stay for a long, long, long time because you are basically just a peon to them.
Also depends on the field, my dad has constant, repeat clients, that always have issues and always have money to pay for litigation. |
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| astroboy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
Oh, yea for sure, my dad worked at a much larger private firm after he got out of the states AG office... He lost his marriage to my mother over that, he just worked and worked... and worked. Mom couldn't take it, he was just never there, and when he was there he was not there mentally, always on the job.
He is in a much smaller firm now (the one before had 30-40 people in two offices in Seattle and Tacoma) and he has much more free time, he works from home when he can if he isn't on the road.
Thats the only thing that sucks is how much he has to drive, his clients are located all over the state and he likes to do business face to face.
Thats the thing though I want to drive home is, that at least in the US, probably much more so on the West Coast, you can do public stuff and still make a killing in private firms when you get older. You do not make nearly as much out the gate but you do get a lot higher faster when you do make a name for yourself. Sure you might start at 160k but thats where you are going to stay for a long, long, long time because you are basically just a peon to them.
Also depends on the field, my dad has constant, repeat clients, that always have issues and always have money to pay for litigation. |
Yeah it's interesting how much lifestyle can vary depending on your area of practice. The best work/life balance I've ever seen was an older solicitor who used to work in personal injury when he was younger but now just sticks to wills/probate and conveyancing by himself in the outer suburbs. It was just him and another guy and a bunch of legal secretaries.. he'd come in, see some clients do some dictation then either hang around if he felt like it or go off to watch the tennis, or just catch up with friends.. because the work is fairly formulaic the secretaries just kept doing the work while he was away, he just had to review and sign off on it. Good guy tho.. did a bunch of community work in his spare time. |
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| DaRoZa |
i don't think the stigma towards lawyers comes from people on the opposite side of the courtroom, but rather from their own clients. i used to think this sentiment had no substance aside from being perpetuated by pop culture, until i had a terrible experience with a lawyer this year... he almost got away with lying through his teeth over the course of several months and ripping me off $2k. luckily i caught onto it and he gave every penny back when i told him he might become another casualty on this list:
http://www.lsuc.on.ca/regulation/a/discipline/2009/
funny thing is the reason i did some investigating is because i found out he was already on the list from a couple years before, thanks to googling his name. he got busted for forging his clients' signatures to apply for legal aid and kept that money for himself. i couldn't believe it as he was a softspoken and professional sounding guy with 30 years of experience. if you read more of that list you'll see dozens of examples of lawyers mishandling funds and lying at the clients expense. and there's ridiculous ones like the guy in the W section who got suspended a handful of times for abusive emails, and another lawyer punching her client in the face.
not saying this corruption happens at a greater rate than other professions, and i'm sure most lawyers are honourable... but when they do perform misconduct, it compromises whatever the legal issue at hand is and usually costs a victim a large sum of money or power. and any event of that scale will usually make someone hold a grudge; not many other professions aside from politics have that many chips on the table in every issue they deal with. |
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| jonze |
| quote: | Originally posted by TranceGiant
Scalia's dissent in Ira Gore v. BMW is one of my favorites so far. Hilarious! |
try reading the majority in Buck v. Bell. Holmes wrote the line "Three generations of imbeciles are enough".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_v._Bell
if you want to know what's wrong with lawyers, spend time around a law school and ask anyone there why they went to law school. i've noticed about 75% of the people are here because they failed at whatever else they did or had no clue what to do after they spent $100k on a ty communications degree. |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by astroboy
I graduated from law school |
Good! Can you tell me why legal science is a science? You're smart and you're someone whose answer I trust :p |
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| Groundhog Boy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
Good! Can you tell me why legal science is a science? You're smart and you're someone whose answer I trust :p |
You think that's bad...try Library Science as a major. |
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