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Mnimal and Tech-house (pg. 8)
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| nefardec |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I grew up reading Roald Dahl novels, so obviously my own writing is concerned with big friendly giants and talking foxes. 's sake. |
As if nothing you read as a child has influenced you.
's sake. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by nefardec
if anyone here is denying black techno artists a voice, it is you, for denying that which they are saying so clearly - in essence "techno is our music and music for our ancestors". |
Oh you. I am not generalising or stereotyping what "black culture" is about. I am not even emphasising black music or black culture as distinct or seperate to any other music or culture. I am not speaking on behalf of anyone, making assumptions about anyone's influences.
The Belleville trio invented techno. They are the ground zero of the genre in question. If you're not going to focus on them then you can't claim techno is "black music" because the second generation had plenty of white producers. AND if their records do not contain the "essence" of techno, to use your inner-form classifications, then no essence exists and you lose the argument by default. And the best you've got is they possibly listened to a few black artists growing up who cared about African culture, which possibly maybe influenced them in some way. Not enough grounds to make half-assed generalisations about a genre just because you've read another wanky book and had a brainstorm.
Robert Hood is one person. He does not represent a whole genre and he certainly does not represent all ing black musicians. The trouble with your generalisations is they don't hold up. You're talking about the inherent musical DNA of a whole genre as if it inherently encodes a certain cultural element.
Using your own pathetic logic, I could pick out Sven Vath's album "Accident In Paradise" and its weird harpsicord interludes that are clearly him attempting to reinvent early 90s trance as some sort of modern classical. Does that mean I can say "Trance music is all about white musicians encoding their European written-word based sequential musical history into a technological continuum"? No! Because Vath neither invented trance nor is its spokesman. He's just one guy pursuing his own angle. Just because he did it does mean it's encoded into the genre.
If you're going to claim techno represents African pre-slavery culture it has to be there from the start and it has to be an undisputible part of every techno record. Without it, techno wouldn't exist. You can't claim that. You can't claim close to that. You've just Robert Hood, a few other experiments and a whole heap of frantic backtracking arguments.
As far as I'm concerned, what you've got is an unconsciously racist assumption that because the techno originators were black they must channel the Spirit Of Africa and a deeply different culture to white Western, written-language based culture. And that's ing racism, for all your feeble backtracks into what their parents may have listened to. You just don't like your own implicit connections being spelled out to you.
Oh, and I'll make it personal as much as I like. You're ing annoying. When I use personal in place of logic it will become ad hominem and you'll have a leg to stand on. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by nefardec
As if nothing you read as a child has influenced you. |
Some things I read as a child influenced me =/= everything I read as a child influenced me.
Juan Atkins parents possibly listened to Sun Ra =/= Juan Atkins was inspired by Sun Ra's Afrocentrism when he pioneered techno.
Learn 2 Logic. |
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| mr.anderson |
| I wonder why do people often end up arguing on this forum lol |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| Activism on behalf of black urban communities will of course have a lot to do with black *American* culture, but it doesn't necessarily have much to do with Africa or any African cultures. And while the occasional use of iconography related to Africa (an outline of the continent on a record label, for example) speaks of a concern for roots and racial or ethnic identity, it doesn't necessarily imply any deep level of influence from or familiarity with native African music *or* culture. I think you need more than such tenuous links like these to support this thesis that techno is an extension of "African image-centered culture." |
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| nefardec |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
The Belleville trio invented techno. They are the ground zero of the genre in question. If you're not going to focus on them then you can't claim techno is "black music" because the second generation had plenty of white producers. AND if their records do not contain the "essence" of techno, to use your inner-form classifications, then no essence exists and you lose the argument by default. And the best you've got is they possibly listened to a few black artists growing up who cared about African culture, which possibly maybe influenced them in some way. Not enough grounds to make half-assed generalisations about a genre just because you've read another wanky book and had a brainstorm.
Robert Hood is one person. He does not represent a whole genre and he certainly does not represent all ing black musicians. The trouble with your generalisations is they don't hold up. You're talking about the inherent musical DNA of a whole genre as if it inherently encodes a certain cultural element. |
Man, you are really getting desperate, clinging to your belleville island - now Rob Hood is irrelevant? I don't even know where to begin, it's as if you expect someone to provide every single possible example to prove a point? Rob Hood is the one person I used because that's all the time I care to devote to your inane squabblings.
Here's are some quotes to really make you look like an ass. I can't wait to see what is left of your belleville rock after these.
Juan Atkins -
| quote: | Juan has his own theory about why this occurred. "Maybe techno coming out of Detroit had more of the black experience involved, and of course what we've grown up with is soul music and R&B stuff, and then there's funk itself. So I guess it would be only natural that more of these elements would show up."
Given the Detroit crew's pivotal role in the development of techno, it's downright strange that mainstream America is only now getting into the electronic groove, but via the imported sounds of British producers like the Prodigy, the Chemical Brothers and Underworld. "It's history repeating itself," Juan declares. "I mean look back at the Beatles and the Rolling Stones - you can hear in their music that their main influence was Motown. It's obvious! . . . but it took the Beatles to be the supergroup - nobody from Motown could fit that bill."
An irritating aspect of history?
"Of course it is - it's racism, you know? It's irritating because racism is suppression, so I guess you have to thank god that there are people in the world who don't really care about that. I think it's changing here in America, but too slowly. You have to remember that the industry in this country is based around capitalism, and that involves a certain amount of exploitation, an emphasis on marketing and profit, and bottom line. So when you have that you have people being over-cautious about market tastes and they'll underestimate a lot of things - like the black experience here in America. So we get ignored even when we do something innovative. |
Here's a quote from Kevin Saunderson
| quote: | | I think from with kraftwerk what attracted them to me was that they were making future music, it was something you didn’t hear of anyone else and they had their own look going on, that was cool to me. And then with stuff like disco, which was the black dance music movement that preceded us in Techno, they were bringing in records that were making people dance, but using you know vocals and adding a soulful edge. Our interpretation I guess centred on what we wanted to do, taking from these influences but giving our own point of view. |
another Kevin Saunderson quote
| quote: | | [Techno] should be included, and finally, steps are being made to change that. There are some people in Detroit who are going to be putting together an exhibit of techno at the African-American Museum, and [also of] the different movements in different cities. We need stuff like that. We need support like that to help it be known. That's the problem in the Black community now. They know nothing of the music or the history. At one time it was all Black. It's amazing how it's shifted completely." |
Here's a quote from Derrick May
| quote: | | hi-tech. I always try to keep it Tribal hi-tech . I like to stay with the sound that has never really been properly discovered, which is the sound of Detroit. The sound of hi-tech tribalism ; it's very spiritual, very bass oriented, and very drum oriented, very percussive. The original Techno music was very hi-tech with a very percussive feel, so there were lots of strings, lots of sounds to the left, then sounds to the right. But it was extremely, extremely Tribal. It feels like you're in some sort of hi-tech village." |
Another Derrick May
| quote: | | It's kind of insulting. We're in our 30s. We've been doing this since we were 18 years old. The whole world's been listening, and finally somebody back home wants to pay attention. We've been ambassadors for the city, running around the world, and people back home have no idea." He added, "It comes down to keeping the fact alive that this music originated from a black element. It's a black art form. We are on a mission, and we refuse to be forgotten. |
and this isnt 'belleville', but here is a jeff mills quote
| quote: | All the black men you see in America today are the direct result of those actions: all the freedoms we have, as well as the restrictions, refer back to the government and the Black Panthers in the '70s,"
"So we make music. We make music about who we are and where we’re from. Of course there are going to be links – that's why we had songs with titles like Riot. Because that's indicative of the era we were born in, and the things we remember. As time goes on, naturally I think the messages will get further away from that. It's not a coincidence. There is a reason behind UR and Public Enemy and these people. |
i could go on and on with providing examples like this. techno is black music, get over it already. |
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| nefardec |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
Activism on behalf of black urban communities will of course have a lot to do with black *American* culture, but it doesn't necessarily have much to do with Africa or any African cultures. And while the occasional use of iconography related to Africa (an outline of the continent on a record label, for example) speaks of a concern for roots and racial or ethnic identity, it doesn't necessarily imply any deep level of influence from or familiarity with native African music *or* culture. I think you need more than such tenuous links like these to support this thesis that techno is an extension of "African image-centered culture." |
Who are you to call the inclusion of that iconography shallow or tenuous?
What classifies 'deep level of influence' to you?
Ever heard of Afrika Bambaataa? He changed his name to a Zulu Leader after he won a school contest to travel to Africa. He came back and started a hip hop group called 'universal zulu nation', then produced some of the music most influential to early techno producers such as Juan Atkins - electro. Is that deep enough? That's one guy. There are many others as well. Kool Herc. Jamaican immigrant, moved to nyc out of the the dub/soundsystem/rastafarian culture of Kingston, basically invented hip hop deejaying and thus the style of music that became known as hip hop. (BTW What do you think Jeff Mills was deejaying before he became a big shot techno producer? He was a hip hop deejay (the wizard) playing the same as Kool Herc and Bambaataa.) The links are strong and many. This isn't like reading a Roald Dahl book, this is formative, identifying, influential - this music was their lives, and as I have shown in many ways, basically all of the techno pioneers understand and expound its relation to black culture. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by nefardec
Who are you to call the inclusion of that iconography shallow or tenuous? |
I didn't say it was "shallow," I said it doesn't *automatically* imply deep familiarity or influence.
| quote: | What classifies 'deep level of influence' to you?
Ever heard of Afrika Bambaataa? He changed his name to a Zulu Leader after he won a school contest to travel to Africa. He came back and started a hip hop group called 'universal zulu nation', then produced some of the music most influential to early techno producers such as Juan Atkins - electro. Is that deep enough? That's one guy. There are many others as well. Kool Herc. Jamaican immigrant, moved to nyc out of the the dub/soundsystem/rastafarian culture of Kingston, basically invented hip hop deejaying and thus the style of music that became known as hip hop. (BTW What do you think Jeff Mills was deejaying before he became a big shot techno producer? He was a hip hop deejay (the wizard) playing the same as Kool Herc and Bambaataa.) The links are strong and many. This isn't like reading a Roald Dahl book, this is formative, identifying, influential - this music was their lives, and as I have shown in many ways, basically all of the techno pioneers understand and expound its relation to black culture.
I don't see why this is so hard for you guys to grasp. |
I'll admit you know more about the background than I do and the links may be stronger than I thought. But I think our point all along was that an idea or an element of culture is not "African" simply by virtue of being invented or expounded by black people, and you seemed to be using the two notions interchangeably. I may have been misreading, though. |
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| nefardec |
JBJ, you make a valid criticism of my thesis on 'african' influence. This is more tenuous, I agree, but I really don't think given the afrofuturist musico-cultural environment in which the artists immersed themselves, that it is so far fetched to believe that something about the music might, in its 'DNA Makeup' for lack of a better term, have a more to do with african music and culture than some random guy from sweden making a tech house track. That was the extent of my argument.
But as far as techno being 'black music', I think this is exceedingly obvious. The degree to which black implies african is the question.
Anyways I appreciate your lucidity and the respect you afford me as a fellow human being in your response, given the way others in this discussion have conducted themselves.
This is a ethnomusicological thesis that I am interested in researching seriously [academically], and I'm glad you recognize it as a thesis. Maybe some day when I have done the research and conducted the right interviews, etc I can present you with something less 'tenuous', but for now it's all I have. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by nefardec
JBJ, you make a valid criticism of my thesis on 'african' influence. This is more tenuous, I agree, but I really don't think given the afrofuturist musico-cultural environment in which the artists immersed themselves, that it is so far fetched to believe that something about the music might, in its 'DNA Makeup' for lack of a better term, have a more to do with african music and culture than some random guy from sweden making a tech house track. That was the extent of my argument.
Anyways I appreciate your lucidity and the respect you afford me as a fellow human being in your response, given the way others in this discussion conduct themselves.
This is a ethnomusicological thesis that I am interested in researching seriously [academically], and I'm glad you recognize it as a thesis. Maybe some day when I have done the research and conducted the right interviews, etc I can present you with something less 'tenuous', but for now it's all I have. |
Well, if you pursue it further I'd be interested in reading what you come up with. Thanks for a good discussion. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| Also, Dubfire's take on techno truly is awful. On this we can all agree. :) |
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| ToF |
| quote: | Originally posted by mr.anderson
I wonder why do people often end up arguing on this forum lol |
If you can't handle civilised discussions with interesting points of views then head over to some fairy fanboi forums.
Similarly, if you think it's so lame and nerdy GTFO. |
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