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Questions regarding freelance vocalists
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| cryophonik |
One of the singers that I started working with recently is considering selling her services (i.e., vocals/lyrics). I'd handle the recording end of it for her. She has a lot of experience performing live, has years of formal training, and she has a great voice for EDM. But, she is unknown at this point, so getting some promo material together is something that we're working on now. Also, even though we are working together on our own original tracks, my name doesn't carry much weight in the industry. So, one idea that we're considering is to find 1 or 2 up-and-coming producers with good name recognition and offer her vocals for free to help get her name out there. If this happens to be you, feel free to PM me for details if interested.
The technical side of things are very familiar to me - i.e., recording, processing, and delivering the samples. But, I've never gone through the process of hiring a vocalist/lyricist, so the business side (e.g., contract specifics, pricing) is all new territory for us. I'm wondering if some of you who have hired a vocalist (or other freelance musician) could offer some information and/or advice based on your experiences. Some of the specifics that I'm interested in knowing:
- what kind of price range (in USD) would you expect for a very good, but unknown, vocalist?
- regarding price range, if you also paid for the singer to write lyrics, how did that factor into the cost?
- what clauses (if any) did you have in the contract to make sure that you were happy with the final product? This one is a big concern, for obvious reasons, because the producer and singer could potentially have very different ideas of what the vocals, melody, lyrics, etc. should sound like. We obviously don't want to end up in a situation where nobody is happy, or have to redo the song multiple times, so any advice/experience here would be most helpful.
- anybody have an example contract that they care to share?
Sorry so wordy here, but I am looking for some specific answers. Thanks in advance! |
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| Rodri Santos |
if you plan to work together for long time you should establish 2 basic things:
- How much will you pay her. Both 50% ,30/70% etc... it's better to share the incoming than paying her XXX€ because you don't know how much you'll earn so for me this is a must at least at the start when you are building your name.
- About the final product i think you should tell her from the start which kind of EDM are you going to produce and if she is happy with it , get the things clear from the start.
And this is just my advice but i don't have any vocalist hired nor meet any of your statements, it's just another opinion if you wish it. |
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| cryophonik |
| Thanks, but I think you're misunderstanding the questions. I'm not asking how I should work with her - I have worked with many vocalists for many years and we have our own agreements in place from the start. I'm asking about how she/we would go about offering her services to OTHER producers. This would be done on a per-song flat-rate payment basis, not a long-term arrangement, not sharing a percentage of the proceeds, etc. In other words, other producers would hire her, sign a contract, pay her some $$$ amount, then we'd record the vocals, and send them to the producer. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. ;) |
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| Rodri Santos |
| ahhh i have understood now, in this case i now less than you so can't help |
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| EddieZilker |
When you're pimpin' out a ho, you have to establish control, early on. Be all sweet, at first, then, using a loaded pistol you've removed the firing pin from and placed within her reach, get all crazy. Smack her up a bit. She won't know what to do, but will reach for the gun and then pull the trigger. That click is your friend and when she starts crying you can go back to being nice to her and not have to worry about her acting all uppity an' , again.
Seriously, I think you're looking at actually needing to hire an entertainment lawyer and an agent, at any other level than for an amateur speculative release. You might also want to look at the American Federation of Musicians web-site, as they might have resources for artists in her position.
http://www.afm.org/ |
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| cryophonik |
Thanks for the info/link, Eddie - will check it out.
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
When you're pimpin' out a ho, you have to establish control, early on. Be all sweet, at first, then, using a loaded pistol you've removed the firing pin from and placed within her reach, get all crazy. Smack her up a bit. She won't know what to do, but will reach for the gun and then pull the trigger. That click is your friend and when she starts crying you can go back to being nice to her and not have to worry about her acting all uppity an' , again.
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Speaking from experience, right? :p |
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| cryophonik |
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
Seriously, I think you're looking at actually needing to hire an entertainment lawyer and an agent, at any other level than for an amateur speculative release. |
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that hiring a lawyer/agent is out of the question at this point. When lawyers get involved, they're the only ones who end up making any money off of it, and they're usually unnecessary. Even for the small minority of times when they could be useful, I'd rather deal with the risk of losing a small amount of money over one dissatisfied customer than deal with vultures. And, we also really don't need an agent at this point. I handled the booking for my bands for 2 decades and only used an agent when necessary (i.e., specific club's requirements). Agents just convoluted the whole process, made communication even more difficult, etc.
We're just looking to do some recording for other EDM artists who want vocals on their tracks, but don't have the resources/knowledge to do it themselves. I see threads asking about finding vocalists nearly every other week on various forums, so it might be a nice niche for the singer to make a few bucks on the side. |
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| Mad for Brad |
like always, you producers are approaching it the wrong way
Make her the artist. If she is attractive and marketable, that will sell if the music is ok. Why are EDM producers so thick headed. Take a lesson from pop. Look at uffie. She was nothing but a front to a bunch of producers but people associated with her, not the producers. You can't market a producer, you market artists.
Are you so egotistical that your name has to be in the title ? If you make a hit, people will find out you did it. It isn't complicated. The problem is that you producers just make tracks that have no unity and thus you have no brand.
Have an image , have a sound , and you will have something to market. Anything else is just a bunch of conflated bull that will blend seamlessly with all the other bs on beatport. Interesting artists standout, old producers turn people off. Just make the music, make the money and leave the ego at the door. |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by cryophonik
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that hiring a lawyer/agent is out of the question at this point. When lawyers get involved, they're the only ones who end up making any money off of it, and they're usually unnecessary. Even for the small minority of times when they could be useful, I'd rather deal with the risk of losing a small amount of money over one dissatisfied customer than deal with vultures. And, we also really don't need an agent at this point. I handled the booking for my bands for 2 decades and only used an agent when necessary (i.e., specific club's requirements). Agents just convoluted the whole process, made communication even more difficult, etc.
We're just looking to do some recording for other EDM artists who want vocals on their tracks, but don't have the resources/knowledge to do it themselves. I see threads asking about finding vocalists nearly every other week on various forums, so it might be a nice niche for the singer to make a few bucks on the side. |
I figured it was something along that line but wasn't sure. Your experience is a huge plus, too. Personally, if it was just my song, I'd want to pay her (or any vocalist) scale. If it were a collaboration, however, I'd make it a 50/50 split with both reserved rights and royalties and would make source-files and stems available for her to hand to any producers she wanted to. Unless there was some extenuating circumstance (like I hired her to perform vocals which she wound up having extensive creative input on) I can't imagine it being anything other than speculative, in terms of payment for a collaborative performance.
EDIT: I'd pay for play, however, for a contracted performance. |
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| cryophonik |
Thanks Brad, but you've completely missed the point and you're making some very wrong assumptions. This has nothing to do with me or my artist name. This is one singer that I work with who is looking to branch out and do something she loves to do. Neither of us are trying to "make it". My only interest is to help her get some more exposure by facilitating the process and providing my recording studio. My name won't be associated with any releases. I'm not a young "producer" trying to be the next Armin - I'm an old dude with a career and family who used to be a professional musician, but now just does it as a hobby. I don't care if I make any money, I don't care if my tracks have any "unity" or "brand" recognition - I just make music that I want to make and I rarely even submit songs to labels. If other people happen to like it and are willing to pay for it, or steal it, or whatever, is a-OK with me.
That said, you are right that this is entirely about her being "the artist", not me. |
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| Richard Butler |
Dave I think there could be some producers that want to use the service, but I know from running my own business that you need to watch out for time vampires - people who will suck away hours of your time tooing and froing, but wont want to part with much cash.
Maybe you wont mind but if it were me I'd want the terms of business pinned down very clearly.
Customers have this habit of telling you what they want in fairly vague terms, but as we all have individual reality tunnels, when it comes to delivey, they are in habit of then saying the result wasn't what they had envisaged.
An analolgy is where one person tells you how great a restaurant was, only for you to find it to be sh1te - we all have differing tastes.
As your'e probably well aware, forum folk have this habit of saying 'count me in' or 'I#ll be up for that one', but watch how they go silent when it comes to actually angaging with a fee paying service.
All the best. |
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| cryophonik |
Thanks Richard. Very good points, particularly these two:
| quote: | Originally posted by Richard Butler
- people who will suck away hours of your time tooing and froing, but wont want to part with much cash.
- As your'e probably well aware, forum folk have this habit of saying 'count me in' or 'I#ll be up for that one', but watch how they go silent when it comes to actually angaging with a fee paying service.
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Makes me wonder if it's even worth the time, but I'll leave that up to her. ;) |
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