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Producing in MONO , what why how !? (pg. 3)
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| Kismet7 |
| these threads are always entertaining. |
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| theterran |
| quote: | Originally posted by music2dance2
Those 2 would be the least offending, if offending at all.
Other tracks in the stereo field is what you are checking mainly. Mixing with just headphones is fine it all depends on how well you know the phones you are using and quality of headphones. |
Go to the basic tutorials and check which components of a song you are encouraged to mono and keep centered, and then get back to me. (I'll save you some time...it's your kick and bass) This actually deals with the cone in each speaker being out of phase and the sound canceling itself out mid-air.
With regards to taking a stereo field to mono and checking in headphones, that deals with the DAW/Stereo to mono summing each side's wave and then converting to mono, and you'll lose sound the same way, but digitally, not mechanically.
So I suppose I see the confusion.
And no, you are supposed to mix mainly with speakers/monitors and use cans as a reference...(or use them so you don't piss off your roomate at 1 am when you can't help yourself lol)
I have a pair of Beyerdynamic DT770 pros and would still make sure to reference off a pair of good monitors before committing to a mixdown.
Headphones will not give you any accurate info as to how the sound translates through the air nor how each side of the stereo field interacts with itself. You cannot identify external stereo phasing problems with headphones. On top of that, it's well known that headphones will overly exaggerate the width of your stereo field as well.
This is basic mixing technique, and I feel confident in saying that you are in fact wrong :) |
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| Stu Cox |
| quote: | Originally posted by theterran
Headphones will not give you any accurate info as to how the sound translates through the air nor how each side of the stereo field interacts with itself. |
Some would argue that the reflections you get will vary between rooms, so the variations through the air can be misleading... it's similar to the idea of trying to use monitors with as flat a response as possible because any frequency curve your monitors might have will differ from the curve another set of speakers offers.
But I'm just playing devil's advocate really, I agree with everything else you've said... sort of.
| quote: | Originally posted by music2dance2
Those 2 would be the least offending, if offending at all.
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You're both right and wrong in a way :D
Low frequencies are more susceptible to cancelling each other out and causing phasing effects. But at low frequencies, you are less likely to notice.
Higher frequencies can also cancel each other out - especially if you're using any stereo width enhancers, as these just apply a slight phase difference to one channel, which will clash with each other when mixed down to a mono channel. So I'd steer clear of them. But any sound could potentially clash with another if you get unlucky.
You don't have to keep your kick and bass centred... it tends to feel more 'balanced' but it's not a hard and fast rule. It hasn't got much to do with phasing effects in a mono mix. |
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| theterran |
| quote: | Originally posted by Stu Cox
Some would argue that the reflections you get will vary between rooms, so the variations through the air can be misleading... it's similar to the idea of trying to use monitors with as flat a response as possible because any frequency curve your monitors might have will differ from the curve another set of speakers offers.
But I'm just playing devil's advocate really, I agree with everything else you've said. |
yeah also had to do some of my own clarification. being nitpicked is obnoxious ;D I just couldn't help musing that some of the boorish stuff I learned in school actually applies to things I like doing...anyway.
I was also assuming a theoretical 0 reflection...as if the monitors were delivering directly to each ear. But in all honesty that shouldn't matter. Physically it's the cones being out of phase that should produce the effect, so any out of phase sound bouncing around would cancel out...If they're perfectly lined up with each ear you'll simply have less phasing I imagine...
I wouldn't imply that higher freq. sounds wouldn't either, just assumed that they were less susceptible to it or less noticeable. I just notice that putting a bass into stereo becomes more problematic in terms of mixing, and might be more affected by phase cancellation. So mono + centering it would give both the added benefit of not mucking around with phase cancellation at all, and providing balance.
I simply remember seeing an article relating to phase cancellation that mentioned it as a good reason to mono/center your bass/kick. *shrug*
Not sure how/why cones would be out of phase due to stereo imaging, and maybe a more knowledgeable TA'er could elaborate/correct. |
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| Stu Cox |
I've added a bit more above ;)
There are various things that can cause phase differences between the two channels. They all boil down to different things happening on each channel which you don't realise end up clashing when the channels are combined.
This could be an effect designed to artificially give width: stereo enhancers, some reverb plugins, etc
Or it could be sounds which just happen to clash because of the nature of their waveforms. Using 2 synths (particularly if it's 2 instances of the same softsynth) with very similar sounds at similar frequencies can cause it. Similar percussion sounds can cause it: some hi-hat samples for example are derived from others, maybe with some compression or EQ applied, so might sound quite different but actually contain a similar set of frequencies at a slightly different phase.
If you've panned these away from each other - you might have done it to avoid a clash or you might just have done it anyway - you could be hiding the fact that they'll clash when brought back down to a mono track. |
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| theterran |
Also seems like you can incur a reduction in bass volume when going from a stereo bass to a mono bass especially in clubs from some reading. I'm sure the reason for mono'ing your kick/bass is primarily based on balance like you said and less to do with phasing...Although I still feel that higher energy, lower-frequency waves wold be more apt to do it. But alas it ends up being because you're simply sharing the loads on each speaker assuming stereo to achieve more headroom.
Pulled this from a mixing article : "now, the word is subs should be in mono. Why? two reasons : almost all large live systems are mono only, this means that putting your sub in stereo can create a loss of volume if you have a lazy soundman who bridges the left instead of crossing both sides for true mono. The other reason is because of psychoaccoustics, we cant accurately pinpoint the location of tones that fall into the low bass ranges, because we dont hear these tones, we feel thier frequency physically. yes, it tricks your brain into percieving touch as hearing, but, the fact is, thats whats happening, so panning has very little value on low rnages."
Also found a VST that will take an instrument and break it apart into mono/stereo depending on desired frequencies. Probably badass for dubstep purposes.
Always fun/enlightening being wrong (and quite blazed) :) |
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| Raphie |
Also your tracks can be inphase, but the system out of phase, depening on listening position, frequency. Also there are things as standing waves etc.
REALLY GUYS< FOR MOST OF YOU MONO SHOULD BE THE LAST THING ON YOUR MIND, LEARN TO DELIVER DECENT MIXES IS FAR MORE IMPORTANT |
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| theterran |
| quote: | Originally posted by Raphie
REALLY GUYS< FOR MOST OF YOU MONO SHOULD BE THE LAST THING ON YOUR MIND, LEARN TO DELIVER DECENT MIXES IS FAR MORE IMPORTANT |
knowin' more don't hurt tho eh? |
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| Raphie |
True, but really, if people want to improve
- learn how build an arrangement
- learn how to use EQ
- learn how dynamics work
- learn about shaping them with compression
- then about commercial volume
There is so much other stuff that already goes wrong in several tracks that mono really should be the least of the concerns.
It's like taking your first swimming lesson in your local swimming pool and worry about decompression desease :D |
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| Evolve140 |
| I thought club systems just were mono below a certain frequency? Working exclusively in mono doesn't make any sense to me, because it's impossible to work with reverbs and delays to a certain point. Referencing is always good. |
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| kitphillips |
^^^ Subs are uni directional, so they're always mono. Hence why its best to mix that way using a linear phase EQ on your master channel. That way you never get unpleasant surprises. The question here is about preserving mono compatability, which is important for situations when someone is listening to a track through a clock radio, or is standing in a position on the dancefloor where the two channels are out of phase.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
I think it's fine to keep it a mix of mono and stereo channels, but doing regular checks in mono on the master output to make sure things don't disappear. |
This is true, although I tend to think you should limit your stereo channels to less than 50% of your total channels before sends and effects etc. In other words, no more half your tracks should be stereo at all before you've panned them, effected them, and sent them to reverbs etc. Otherwise I think you just get a washy mix with no focal points. RANN probably knows heaps better than me, but thats just what I try to do.
Raphie, panning is a crucial element of delivering decent mixes IMO. Its more important than EQ, and FAR more important than compression IMO. |
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| Raphie |
panning implies STEREO, so doesn't adhere to MONO.
I am sorry i sound a bit aggetated, but these kind of threads, pop up here all the time. "yeah my bass sounds much better now i use the mono maker" etc. EVER thought about panning laws and how much LOUDER a summed mono signal is compared to a stereo one.
Really most people here have no clue, don't bother to learn the basics and read and explore, they just let their mind wander free with stupid theories and hearsay....... |
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