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Everything popular is wrong - Stefan Goldmann (pg. 3)
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| Rodri Santos |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lolo
And you really do think that even the mainstream audience into the different scenes will keep eating the bunch of lies surrounding what should be treated with care and passion?
What you just described is absolutely true, though, but I am not sure this still will be in a year's time.
Believe me though, if I tell you that people are sick of this non-moving, non-evolving scene full of wannabe's. There's a new scene growing that's not based on money or fame, but just on passion for good music. Too bad many can't see that yet. That will be a relief for the all of you. |
It's happening right now, it is not a guess, here we are the purists, for every one here that cares about production, who and how produces music there are 1000 who listen to 128kbps mp3 from limewire, who love Dj Tiesto - Silence, Dj Tiesto Ayla , Armin van Buuren - Take me Away , Paul van Dyk - Airwave etc... if they don't know who produced the track how can they know that someone anonymously produced it for a big name brand, they will never buy a physical cd to bother reading the booklet and discover that the track was written by a guy, arranged by another and mastered/produced by other.
People on this forum are sick about this, the underground exist, i know some clubs that book obscure trance names, for a lot of people Gareth Emery is unknown whereas 99% of people here know him, if i tell you that Gary Maguire is playing close to me next weekend even people here would doubt, who is him? But hey, some people bet for quality instead of booking a famous name.
I love that this exists, according to what the OP says many many people would play for free, would produce for free and would love to have a dayjob and at night unleash themselves, some people can get a dream job out of music, but for me it would be enough to have a following of a few hundred loyals connected with me and my music every weekend, to have a real party like they used to be, with no jesus poses, lights and groupies, just 2 turntables a mixer and a rave somewhere, where the dj is just the person in charge of music, not the god of the rest.
Something like this mythical photo
The dj and his cult back to back , no rockstars. |
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| cryophonik |
| quote: | Originally posted by Rodri Santos
...to have a real party like they used to be, with no jesus poses, lights and groupies, just 2 turntables a mixer and a rave somewhere, where the dj is just the person in charge of music, not the god of the rest.
The dj and his cult back to back , no rockstars. |
You just touched on one thing about dance music that has annoyed me for years - the fact that we have all become slaves to the almighty f@#ing DJ. The whole thing is ass-backward. No offense to those of you who are DJs, but it requires a load more time and talent to become a good musician, composer, and producer and create good tracks than it does to beatmatch, jesus-pose, and select good tracks, yet the DJs get most of the credit and acclaim, have far more influence over the direction of the scene, and still require the majority of artists to compromise their works by including lame-ass "DJ-friendly" intros. If I was younger, more serious about this, and motivated, I'd be starting a revolution to reclaim the attention of the audience on behalf of all musicians and start putting things back in perspective, because the audience has become increasingly clueless. [/rant] |
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| Richard Butler |
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
Burial's sound comes from using a really strange way of working, no midi and heaps of hand placed samples. That's one reason why its unique, because its just not quantised at all. |
I can really relate to this.
I seem to be quite wierd in that if everyone is excited by some new special product that sets out to change the way you work, I seem to react negatively to it - almost contrarian.
I'm not saying I'm right to react this way, it's something I have no control over.
I'm thinking of something like a sample mangler such as Giest - I kinda get it, but thenm I have this quick train of thought that goes, 'mmm, loads of folk will use this and end up with a similarish outcome, so instead I'll do it some hard cranky way with 20 inserts on a synth'.
As I say I'm not saying I'm cool, just a bit contrarian. I like having to make a big effort to do something-weird I guess. |
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| cryophonik |
| quote: | Originally posted by Richard Butler
I'm thinking of something like a sample mangler such as Giest - I kinda get it, but thenm I have this quick train of thought that goes, 'mmm, loads of folk will use this and end up with a similarish outcome, so instead I'll do it some hard cranky way with 20 inserts on a synth'.
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Not to get too far OT here, but sample mangling is just one thing that Geist does well. Its primary strength is still as a virtual drum machine/sequencer, and it does that very well IMO. I think the reason that people talk about its sampling abilities is usually when it is being compared to Maschine, Stylus, etc. - the sampling features in Geist definitely set it apart from the rest, but isn't necessarily its defining characteristic. |
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| Beatflux |
| quote: | Originally posted by cryophonik
You just touched on one thing about dance music that has annoyed me for years - the fact that we have all become slaves to the almighty f@#ing DJ. The whole thing is ass-backward. No offense to those of you who are DJs, but it requires a load more time and talent to become a good musician, composer, and producer and create good tracks than it does to beatmatch, jesus-pose, and select good tracks, yet the DJs get most of the credit and acclaim, have far more influence over the direction of the scene, and still require the majority of artists to compromise their works by including lame-ass "DJ-friendly" intros. If I was younger, more serious about this, and motivated, I'd be starting a revolution to reclaim the attention of the audience on behalf of all musicians and start putting things back in perspective, because the audience has become increasingly clueless. [/rant] |
Yup.
There used to be a DJ Mystik that would use his own DJ name in front of other people's track titles. I was none the wiser until one day someone told me. :P That was back in high school.... |
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| Richard Butler |
| quote: | Originally posted by cryophonik
Not to get too far OT here, but sample mangling is just one thing that Geist does well. Its primary strength is still as a virtual drum machine/sequencer, and it does that very well IMO. I think the reason that people talk about its sampling abilities is usually when it is being compared to Maschine, Stylus, etc. - the sampling features in Geist definitely set it apart from the rest, but isn't necessarily its defining characteristic. |
I'm just not very into a great many 'tool's' that tell you on the tin they are here to make life a little easier and working quicker. I like a hands on step by step scissor and fx approach personaly. Probably a glutton for punnishment, we'll see.
PS - dubstep is way cool for young kids - it's thier 'new' rock n roll, it's thier 'Kraftwerk'. Too easy to dismiss - but we all might want to think back to why we loved new things and anything the oldies did not like. |
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| Richard Butler |
Further to the article on about there being virtualy no money around, how do hardware / software firms manage to sell enough stock?
I mean in FM this month there were even some totaly new hardware manaufacturers offering product - are us 'artistes' just gear freaks, or do we actualy think our productions will repay the investment..
The point about originality is key I think, but it's a very fine line bewteen overt orignality and totaly self aware naval gazed banality. I bet we've all seen a very original yet boring art house movie. How about uber - cool artists that just set up a pile of bricks or an old bed in a gallery - that's an original (although terribly self aware) attempt at stepping away from mainstream 'dross', but on the other hand I prefer a good old landscape water colour most often.
You can see this constant striving for originality in the top end restaurant bgame where chefs vie for artistic integrity, but sometimes the punter just wants a good ole slice of apple pie as opposed to bacon and egg ice crem (an actual dish by the uber trendy UK chef, Heston Blumentall).
Is not music the same as cheffing? A handful of dominant famous chefs, and thousands of unknown unloved cooks? |
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| cryophonik |
| quote: | Originally posted by Richard Butler
Further to the article on about there being virtualy no money around, how do hardware / software firms manage to sell enough stock?
I mean in FM this month there were even some totaly new hardware manaufacturers offering product - are us 'artistes' just gear freaks, or do we actualy think our productions will repay the investment..
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The article was focused on the relatively small number of EDM artists trying to make it. It's easy for EDM guys to lose site of the fact that they are only one small slice of the pie and that there are artists of all levels and incomes out there buying gear and software - they range from newbies/hobbyists to household names, but the largest share of the market is in the middle of the bell-shaped curve, which is likely composed of a mix of people who have their own income or make a modest living off their music income. Likewise, there are software developers of all walks of life putting new products on the market every week. Some of them have deep pockets or support from a mothership company, others are self-sufficient hobbyists who develop plugins in their spare time as a hobby and/or to supplement their income. |
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| kitphillips |
| quote: | Originally posted by cryophonik
You just touched on one thing about dance music that has annoyed me for years - the fact that we have all become slaves to the almighty f@#ing DJ. The whole thing is ass-backward. No offense to those of you who are DJs, but it requires a load more time and talent to become a good musician, composer, and producer and create good tracks than it does to beatmatch, jesus-pose, and select good tracks, yet the DJs get most of the credit and acclaim, have far more influence over the direction of the scene, and still require the majority of artists to compromise their works by including lame-ass "DJ-friendly" intros. If I was younger, more serious about this, and motivated, I'd be starting a revolution to reclaim the attention of the audience on behalf of all musicians and start putting things back in perspective, because the audience has become increasingly clueless. [/rant] |
I'm a DJ and I'm not offended. There is way too much hero worship going on around people like armin and its missing the fact that he's just one of a thousand talented guys out there. I just don't like the modern idea that DJ's are like rockstars. Dance music was originally a democratic art form where DJing was just a member of the crowd getting up and playing music to give something back to his feloow music lovers; it was never about worshipping them.
That said, DJing is a real artform, even if it's not the same as production. It also has a lot to do with marketing, talking to the right people, and having good business skills. While being a successful producer requires all those skills, if you're a DJ you can't get a gig at all without them at all.
| quote: | Originally posted by Richard Butler
I can really relate to this.
I seem to be quite wierd in that if everyone is excited by some new special product that sets out to change the way you work, I seem to react negatively to it - almost contrarian.
I'm not saying I'm right to react this way, it's something I have no control over.
I'm thinking of something like a sample mangler such as Giest - I kinda get it, but thenm I have this quick train of thought that goes, 'mmm, loads of folk will use this and end up with a similarish outcome, so instead I'll do it some hard cranky way with 20 inserts on a synth'.
As I say I'm not saying I'm cool, just a bit contrarian. I like having to make a big effort to do something-weird I guess. |
I don't think he does it to be contrary, I think he just has a weird way of working from having done it for a long time. I tend to be the same way as you I think, try out new gear, but then cast it aside and try to create those sounds on your old gear. Works 99% of the time.
Incidentally, there's been a lot of bashing of dubstep in this thread, but everyone should remember that dubstep is one of the few genres in EDM which still holds true to a lot of the older ideals of the DJ being anonymous. No one knew who burial was until after he released his second album, because he kept his identity hidden.
Similarly, dubstep remains the only genre where you get really diverse styles, from breaksy stuff to techno, dubstep and back. No other genre is still going this really, they've all become ultra insular and its rare to hear a breakbeat in a trance track. |
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| Stu Cox |
| quote: | Originally posted by cryophonik
You just touched on one thing about dance music that has annoyed me for years - the fact that we have all become slaves to the almighty f@#ing DJ. The whole thing is ass-backward. No offense to those of you who are DJs, but it requires a load more time and talent to become a good musician, composer, and producer and create good tracks than it does to beatmatch, jesus-pose, and select good tracks, yet the DJs get most of the credit and acclaim, have far more influence over the direction of the scene, and still require the majority of artists to compromise their works by including lame-ass "DJ-friendly" intros. If I was younger, more serious about this, and motivated, I'd be starting a revolution to reclaim the attention of the audience on behalf of all musicians and start putting things back in perspective, because the audience has become increasingly clueless. [/rant] |
Yes and no.
Yes it takes more time and natural talent to become a competent producer than it does a competent DJ. By which I mean being capable of the mechanics of DJing: beat matching, picking tracks which go together and generally not playing them in an arse-about-tit order. The entry threshold is definitely lower for DJs, particularly with the technology around now.
But, like producing, becoming a REALLY good DJ is something which you never stop learning - knowing what to play when, arranging and mixing the records in a way which creates exactly the effect you're after. You get better with every gig and even after 13 years of it I'm still learning.
You've chosen to be involved in dance music. Music designed for clubs. If you want to write electronic music for home listening without DJ-friendly versions, go ahead, but then you're going head to head with a whole world of other artists. Having the club scene there actually gives producers more of an opportunity to be heard than other genres, because with the turnaround of music and the number of DJs in the world there's a need for so much more music than say in rock and indie. DJs buy music out of necessity, not just because they want to listen to the tracks at home themselves, which gives you more of a chance to be heard.
Here's a picture of a horse to break up the text a bit:
DJs (mainly radio DJs) have always had the most influence over every scene. In the same way that people in marketing have more influence over the industries they work in than the technical people designing the products. It's how the world works.
I don't mean this to come across as a huge defence of DJs - a lot of them are and get a lot more respect than they deserve. Very very few DJs deserve rock star status and those that do don't claim it. Although as much of a bender as Armin looks on stage, he's done a HELL of a lot for getting new trance producers heard, which is more than I can say for Tiesto and it's something that isn't even in the minds of new DJs nowadays.
To me DJs should fulfil one of 2 roles (or sometimes both):
a) Getting new music heard ('radio' style, but there's a club element to it too), or
b) Doing something very creative with recorded music
If you just want to stand on stage and play a load of tunes mixed in the same old fashion waving your arms in the air and don't care about the producers who made that music, you're a cunt. |
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| Evolve140 |
| quote: | Originally posted by cryophonik
You just touched on one thing about dance music that has annoyed me for years - the fact that we have all become slaves to the almighty f@#ing DJ. The whole thing is ass-backward. No offense to those of you who are DJs, but it requires a load more time and talent to become a good musician, composer, and producer and create good tracks than it does to beatmatch, jesus-pose, and select good tracks, yet the DJs get most of the credit and acclaim, have far more influence over the direction of the scene, and still require the majority of artists to compromise their works by including lame-ass "DJ-friendly" intros. If I was younger, more serious about this, and motivated, I'd be starting a revolution to reclaim the attention of the audience on behalf of all musicians and start putting things back in perspective, because the audience has become increasingly clueless. [/rant] |
Bravo. |
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| Storyteller |
| quote: | Originally posted by Stu Cox
To me DJs should fulfil one of 2 roles (or sometimes both):
a) Getting new music heard ('radio' style, but there's a club element to it too), or
b) Doing something very creative with recorded music
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I disagree. A dj should only have 1 goal: have fun while performing the craft of dj-ing. If others like it then it's good, if not he'll be gone from the stage quick :). |
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