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Is it ok to just squash the hell out of your bassline and just make everything else.. (pg. 2)
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| Nick Cenik |
| A wiseman taught me to stop compressing my basslines - and so I have. In fact, I hardly every compress anything anymore and my tracks sound way better. |
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| mysticalninja |
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
nope.Compressed, sure, more than anything else, nope. |
Well alot of rock singers and some rappers need a compressor with a really high ratio, 7:1 to 8:1, just to record at a decent hot level and not clip when they go from being close and intimate with the mic to screaming at it. |
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| Looney4Clooney |
| ratio isn't telling me anything. And nobody will use compression to go from talking to screaming, They use automation. |
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| mysticalninja |
nobody automates for that. it simply would not sound right. Compressor is the way it's always been done. you obviously have not tracked rock vocals! using a compressor during recording is standard of not necessary.
i received training from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._J._Helmerich and this is what was taught. And one of the things he mentioned was how back in the day engineers assumed Led Zeppelins vocals were recorded "riding the fader", or that he was moving away from the mic when he started to yell, but for some reason couldn't get it to sound the same. until he assisted their engineer and realized they were hitting an SSL compressor harder than any book would ever tell you to. now days lots of bands have that sound. but then it was a mystery and assumed to be automation.
i forgot how much this board hates compression |
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| Beatflux |
| quote: | Originally posted by mysticalninja
nobody automates for that. it simply would not sound right. Compressor is the way it's always been done. you obviously have not tracked rock vocals! using a compressor during recording is standard of not necessary.
i received training from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._J._Helmerich and this is what was taught. And one of the things he mentioned was how back in the day engineers assumed Led Zeppelins vocals were recorded "riding the fader", or that he was moving away from the mic when he started to yell, but for some reason couldn't get it to sound the same. until he assisted their engineer and realized they were hitting an SSL compressor harder than any book would ever tell you to. now days lots of bands have that sound. but then it was a mystery and assumed to be automation.
i forgot how much this board hates compression |
No...you're thinking of GS. |
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| mysticalninja |
what is GS? also you can't "automate" while recording.. im tallking about getting a hot level on a dynamic vocal track without clipping. where someone can safely go from whispering into a mic to belching out and still actually record it while hearing everything.
edit: nm... gearslutz... |
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| Looney4Clooney |
| quote: | Originally posted by mysticalninja
nobody automates for that. it simply would not sound right. Compressor is the way it's always been done. you obviously have not tracked rock vocals! using a compressor during recording is standard of not necessary.
i received training from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._J._Helmerich and this is what was taught. And one of the things he mentioned was how back in the day engineers assumed Led Zeppelins vocals were recorded "riding the fader", or that he was moving away from the mic when he started to yell, but for some reason couldn't get it to sound the same. until he assisted their engineer and realized they were hitting an SSL compressor harder than any book would ever tell you to. now days lots of bands have that sound. but then it was a mystery and assumed to be automation.
i forgot how much this board hates compression |
lets clear a few things up
First, we are in the digital age, unlike when led zeppelin was recording, we have alot more headroom so where as compression was a necessity, you can easily record talking and screaming and have a signal that is way above the noise floor. You simply wouldn't apply such drastic compression in the tracking part. You also reference 1 band. So although it is cool that you read about stuff, I really don't think you have ever been in a modern studio. Alot bands do, alot don't. I think you will find that they are always compressed less than any other element in the mix. Most engineers will do 3 - 6 dB of GR. And that is on pop albums.
next on the list, as far as digital audio is concerned, - 20 dBfs is hot enough. A real engineer in a real studio would understand this. A real engineer isn't going to squash the source with 2 distressors in serial while tracking. What studio where you at that did this ? not saying it won't ever happen. Certain projects that about to get certain sounds might do it but this is a producer / engineer understanding. You will not find any sane engineer do this as a default on any style of music.
Further more on the topic of screaming in regards to emo/screamo bands. They are not done on the same take. Secondly, that screaming you think is loud, it actually is rather quiet. Can't account for all but any big band that does it, there is a technique believe it or not and it involves sounding like you are screaming when you really aren't. You would know this if you were there in the studio. and that is pretty much how I know you weren't. Well i believe you were at a school. That isn't a studio. That is a studio run by engineers that usually don't know how to engineer. Let me guess, vintage ribbon microphone with phantom power.
I don't hate compression, I use it on orchestral intruments. I don't like people saying that isn't true. I said that the vocals are the element that are least compressed. YOu are twisting my words into a typical denying the antecedent logical fallacy. I ever said vocals are not compressed, i never said they are not very compressed. I said that almost always, they are the element the least compressed in a mix. You bring up one style , one example and develop the idea that this is how it is done. It was at a school. It was by a teacher that well isn't what most would call a working engineer. Not now not ever.
And finally. Automation is always better. IF it can be automated, you don't compress. And yes you can automate while recording. Real engineers do. A dying breed unfortunately. |
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| mysticalninja |
i'm not tallking about emo/screamo. i'm tallking about this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G23WO9S5F-s and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbrjRKB586s
going from mellow to belching
You can't automate every bit between every word to bring up the breathing sounds etc like a compressor can.
And no actually he is a grammy nomited engineer for Dweezil Zappa..
At the studio I work in, we record through a SSL4000 console and we use those compressors during tracking, and we use those compressors as well as outboard during mixdown. seems right to me. and i disagree, i think the "more" important signal path is in tracking rather than mixing in regards to final quality of sound. of course people will say it's wrong, pointless, to compress twice, i disagree. |
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| Looney4Clooney |
i agree that the tracking part is more important. Which is why you don't over do it. Again , i never said compression isn't used. Just not as much as you think. And the compressors are used more as gentle limiters for lack of a better word. And again, in both examples, the vocals are the element that is least compressed. And they are both pre digital which makes it not as relevant as you think when working in the digital realm.
and i really doubt that they used a SSL. They did not exist. i mean the first board was made in like 1970. The one track is from 1969. That album was recorded live. Second album was made in the states so forget seing an SSL. Your teacher was off by about 10 years. Or you were not paying attention. They were still using 8 tracks. I mean abbey roads was using an 8 track console in 1970 or close to that time. The SSL is the 80s and beyond. And there was no such thing as a SSL compressor unit either. Was a helios or 1176 or combination. NOt a ing G class SSL compressor with side chain. |
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| mysticalninja |
just because they are loudest doesn't mean they're the least compressed.
The SSL console came out in 1975 and every channel included a compressor. And SSL boards weren't limited to over seas. They did use an SSL in the late 70's/80's, which was when T.J. (my teacher) worked as assistant engineer for them. The point wasn't the SSL exactly it was compression. you have to compress hard to get that robert plant sound. like at least 6db of avg gain reduction with fast atk/rls. if you just stand in front of a microphone yelling it doesn't sound like that. it just sounds loud and ty. if you take a step back from the microphone and yell it still doesn't sound like that. to bring up all the details and add that color you need that compression.
compression on orchestral instruments?? that is one of the few things i would use no compression on :conf: |
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| Looney4Clooney |
are you sure you know what compression is ?
anyways , i'm sure Rann has more historical knowledge than me. But SSL is to Led Zepplin what the 50s was to communist love in the USA. |
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| mysticalninja |
yes i do! i use them often. here's a little example:
http://www.mediafire.com/?a6d0f9eacvvd3p0
before is the same track with no compressors. after is mixed with compression. caution: after is loud. try this with volume automation <: :nervous: |
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