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Need help with counterpoint
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| AnalogArchangel |
Hello all of you lovely people :)
I've tried searching for help on such topics and I've had no success, it seems to be a lost technique perhaps...
Could someone be able to explain to me how to effectively use counterpoint with other melodies? The tracks I have finished to this day don't have counterpoint in them and I feel it is something I am greatly lacking and it's holding me back from further finishing any tracks, I've tried from learning it myself like I usually do but it always ends up just being a massive clash with eachother, it's frustrating :)
I've written this F harmonic minor scale in Cubase to use as an example, perhaps someone could help me with figuring out how such a counterpoint would work with this particular melody for just an example?
Any do's or don'ts with counterpoint? rules? Thanks in advance :) I've provided the melody below...
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| DJRYAN™ |
I know what you're talking about.. but I rarely do it.. but essentially, within this same midi pattern, draw an off-setting midi pattern using note derivatives of your primary scale. You'll get that counter-point that you were talking about, as well as some nifty sounding variances to otherwise standard key structure..
In otherwords, just pretend that those already drawn notes don't exist, and draw around them, threw them, and in a variety of octaves and you'll achieve the desired results.. |
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| cryophonik |
| quote: | Originally posted by AnalogArchangel
I've tried searching for help on such topics and I've had no success, it seems to be a lost technique perhaps...
Any do's or don'ts with counterpoint? rules?
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There are a ton of do's/don'ts/rules in counterpoint and googling something like "musical counterpoint" or "tonal counterpoint" should bring up many primers. It's a subject that usually requires a semester or more to cover, so don't expect to learn it in one thread. But, I will give you a few things to think about when you're delving into counterpoint. Most importantly, is motion - not just rate of movement, but direction. One voice typically moves at a given note division while another stays put, but they can alternate. Read about speciation (the rate at which the cantus firmus moves against the counterpoint). Think about direction of movement - parallel vs opposite/contrary motion vs oblique motion (one voice stays put while the other voice moves). Think about intervals - moving in intervals of thirds and sixths are generally fine, moving in intervals of perfect fifths or fourths, not good. Think about harmonic relationships, consonance and dissonance (lots of rules to consider).
Basically, do some research, try to take it somewhere, then come back with more specific questions. Your example melody above is very basic and, therefore, very open to a wide variety of contrapuntal interpretation. |
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| eyepad |
| damn dude, that's some nerd ass right there. :toothless |
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| cryophonik |
| quote: | Originally posted by eyepad
damn dude, that's some nerd ass right there. :toothless |
Counterpoint isn't cool. It's the academic equivalent of waterboarding - music professors only use it to break the weakest students. :whip:
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| Looney4Clooney |
Disagree. It is the foundation of voice leading and harmony. The only training any if the great composers had was counter point . Everything else was self taught.
The problem is that counter point has very specific types which are great exercises but for most modern music, you have maybe 2 voices and learning counterpoint won't do much . |
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| cryophonik |
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
Disagree. |
It wasn't a serious response. ;)
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
The problem is that counter point has very specific types which are great exercises but for most modern music, you have maybe 2 voices and learning counterpoint won't do much . |
True, but if you look at the OP's melody (first-fourth scale degrees all locked to the grid [1/4 notes?]), it probably couldn't hurt to add some counterpoint/countermelody, or something more interesting. |
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| AnalogArchangel |
| quote: | Originally posted by cryophonik
Think about intervals - moving in intervals of thirds and sixths are generally fine, moving in intervals of perfect fifths or fourths, not good. Think about harmonic relationships, consonance and dissonance (lots of rules to consider).
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I totally know what you mean and thanks I have lots to think about now, sorta like I was doing before but maybe I haven't pushed myself to further my suggestion of ideas to myself.
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
The problem is that counter point has very specific types which are great exercises but for most modern music, you have maybe 2 voices and learning counterpoint won't do much . |
I produce Goa Trance, something that counterpoint and harmony is heavily used in, many, many layers, so yes I do need counterpoint & harmony. :) |
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| Looney4Clooney |
never heard a psy trance track with actual melodies intertwined. Layers don't say anything. I can sight read orchestral scores and reduce it in real time playing it on a piano because even tho there are 20 or so lines of music, the most complex music rarely exceeds 4 lines of music or points of intertest. and sound fx, well those counterpoint books written centuries ago, they kinda don't touch on that.
And the way counter point is taught just won't do anything for you. You would be better served listening to music.
And it is also like every theoretical idea a framework that works for a particular style of music. Modal jazz, say guys like monk well, i mean parallel unresolved chords and all that stuff, counterpoint would be a waste just like harmony because you just won't go far enough to make it something that will help instead of a hindrance to creativity which all theory tends to do when you start learning.
I just think for your goal, it isn't worth the time. It is interesting but i just don't think it is what will help you the most.
here , listen from 3:30.
At a certain point , you will hear 2 melodies that well, counterpoint I suppose but not something you learn in a book. It is learnt from listening to music, playing instruments and developing an ear.
Even tho there are 6 musical layers doing different things, there really only is 2 actual things that would be considered melodic lines playing off each other. TO be honest, any more than that is just too much for dance. You should have 2 focal points of interest. Anymore and it defeats the purpose of a dance track. |
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| AnalogArchangel |
I absolutely agree, and coming from a guitar playing background makes things a little difficult for me.
As for Psy-Trance, Psy doesn't use melodies at all and if so, very rarely, it's all mechanical psychedelic sounds these days, what I'm referring to is the tight organic filter sweeped melodies of the 90's from Goa before it evolved into this Psytrance crap.
Here is a perfect example of a VERY intelligent use of counterpoint listen from 6:00 on, there is at least 3 melodies & pads going on and intertwining with eachother in perfect harmony.
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| Looney4Clooney |
| ya that ain't counterpoint. |
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