Originally posted by Paradox Lost
And maybe it makes sense, for if memory serves me correctly, you spent the better part of 2004 reviewing trance over on TC?
Jack didn't join up with that website until 2005, and even then, we spent most of that year reviewing older stuff from our personal collections. Not that 2005 had much good going for it anyway.
DJ RANN
@ Paradox Lost - This isn't my argument or any of my beef, but I believe jack was in his early-mid teens in 2000, while there's no doubt that he's one of the most well educated dance music aficionados I'm come across, there's large swathes of knowledge in the form retrospective education he relies on, not as a witness who actually heard these DJ's or lived through a scene at the time per say. Don't get me wrong, you didn't have live through the french revolution to become a world class expert on it, but I imagine it would be a a different retelling (for better or for worse) from people who actually lived through it.
And given (from what I've seen over the years - correct me if I'm wrong jack?) he got in to dance music around 2002/3 with schranz being the first step so it wouldn't be surprising if he doesn't care too much for a certain strain of prog happening at the same time.
I actually know/knew Dousk, Omid (16B), Demi et al who were pushing that prog sound and much as I loved it and it was definitely a movement with tons of clubs such as bedrock personifying that sound, it didn't peak or last anything like certain periods or sub genres of dance music such as epic house, progressive trance etc. It was also a pretty quick decline and many of those guys you mentioned ended up disappearing within a year or two. Not uncommon in dance music but this is a thread about someone who has traversed so much for long including that little sub genre. Jack may be a little right about the nostalgia, but in fairness, I have it too.
On that note
SYSTEM-J
I have never listened to schranz in my life. Jesus. I started with trance. First dance record I ever bought was Zombie Nation - Kernkraft 400 in 2000, followed by PPK - ResuRection the following year, and it snowballed from there.
Contrary to popular belief, I have actually listened to quite a lot of prog from the 2003-06 era, because a large percentage of it is available digitally and I have trawled through it looking for old bombs. If you ever go through my mixes you'll find quite a few tunes from that era cropping up here and there.
The reason I didn't mention that era in this thread is because it's not really relevant to Sasha. He has admitted by 2003 he was bored of the new prog coming out, he was publicly renouncing progressive in 2004 and if you look at something like Fundacion from 2005 you can see he was already well on his way into forced electro-house enthusiasm. I detailed that, so what more do you want?
The reason I don't really talk about that era more generally is because it really was the fag end of progressive's heyday, and I really don't like the way the genre went. Even the best producers were increasingly guilty of the same shiny, over-produced aesthetics as trance from that era, and below that you simply had McProg. There were two main sources of gold in that era:
1. Progressive breaks, which I've discussed to death.
2. The Scandinavian prog-psy scene, which I've never seen Paradox Lost discuss once, probably because it wasn't big on the West Coast in 2005.
I'm not going into when electro and minimal usurped prog. We've had that discussion before, and Paradox Lost didn't win then either.
Paradox Lost
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
The reason I didn't mention that era in this thread is because it's not really relevant to Sasha. He has admitted by 2003 he was bored of the new prog coming out, he was publicly renouncing progressive in 2004 and if you look at something like Fundacion from 2005 you can see he was already well on his way into forced electro-house enthusiasm. I detailed that, so what more do you want?
The reason I don't really talk about that era more generally is because it really was the fag end of progressive's heyday, and I really don't like the way the genre went. Even the best producers were increasingly guilty of the same shiny, over-produced aesthetics as trance from that era, and below that you simply had McProg. There were two main sources of gold in that era:
1. Progressive breaks, which I've discussed to death.
2. The Scandinavian prog-psy scene, which I've never seen Paradox Lost discuss once, probably because it wasn't big on the West Coast in 2005.
I'm not going into when electro and minimal usurped prog. We've had that discussion before, and Paradox Lost didn't win then either.
This thread as with many others is situated within the larger context of prog, so it's unavoidable that many of your specifically relevant remarks (about Sasha) wind up reflecting a more general understanding (about prog), but these and past remarks always seem to fall short of acknowledging that there was an entire period of prog following the death of what was commonly associated with the genre by the turn of the century.
Yes, you nodded to the shifts in prog that were taking place by saying Sasha was bored with it by 2003, and you hinted that there was still more prog after prog by saying he disowned it by 2004, but I also don't think you're withholding all the other things you could say about the scene by keeping it relevant to Sasha- I just don't suspect there's ever been much more, and your referring to it, now, as the '2003-2006 era' is the first time I've seen you acknowledge that it actually was an era of its own.
The narrative that comes into focus whenever you discuss the scene at large follows the same chronology: it's blowing up toward the end of the 90's, it's leading lights and respected publications are already beginning to move on by around 2000, you say something about Delta Heavy, and by 2003 prog is dead. It's a history I'm not disputing. But then the next three years of prog receive little coverage from you, and what little attention you do give it is spent foreshadowing the rise of minimal and electro, so that tracing the contours of the scene leaves one with the impression that there was this huge musical black hole in the middle of the decade where nothing of note was happening. That's not at all correct.
And no, I haven't at any point ever mentioned the Scandinavian prog-psy scene, but it I didn't attempt to detail a period of music with the glaring omission of Scandinavian prog-psy the way you've glossed over the mid 2000's as little more than white noise as we tune our receivers into electro and minimal. With respect to electro and minimal usurping prog, it's true, that's a discussion I didn't 'win,' but if I recall I freely conceded that point and chalked my misunderstanding to the lag between its explosion and its diffusion out here to the West Coast- but Europe was the very epicenter of the hugely popular movements that I've described in prog, so what's your excuse?
Paradox Lost
quote:
Originally posted by DJ RANN
@ Paradox Lost - This isn't my argument or any of my beef, but I believe jack was in his early-mid teens in 2000, while there's no doubt that he's one of the most well educated dance music aficionados I'm come across, there's large swathes of knowledge in the form retrospective education he relies on, not as a witness who actually heard these DJ's or lived through a scene at the time per say. Don't get me wrong, you didn't have live through the french revolution to become a world class expert on it, but I imagine it would be a a different retelling (for better or for worse) from people who actually lived through it.
I actually know/knew Dousk, Omid (16B), Demi et al who were pushing that prog sound and much as I loved it and it was definitely a movement with tons of clubs such as bedrock personifying that sound, it didn't peak or last anything like certain periods or sub genres of dance music such as epic house, progressive trance etc. It was also a pretty quick decline and many of those guys you mentioned ended up disappearing within a year or two. Not uncommon in dance music but this is a thread about someone who has traversed so much for long including that little sub genre. Jack may be a little right about the nostalgia, but in fairness, I have it too.
I have neither beef nor serious disagreement with 'J, but I bring this point up now as I have in the past because I've found it peculiar that there's this short but entirely relevant chapter in dance history that's comes up missing from having read his comments over the years. On that note, yes, whatever popularity in prog I've tired to emphasize still only lasted a fraction as long as its 90's predecessor, and didn't eat up nearly as much market share, but whether it was hot on its own, or there was just nothing better going on, it was the still the headlining sound pushed by everything that had cemented itself as major players in the scene. I'm not disputing anything he says in the years prior or after, and I'm certainly not about to take issue with his grip on the early 90's, but this is a gap I've felt ought to be filled.
One thing I do take issue with is how nostalgia is regularly treated as a reliability questioning red flag. He's not all incorrect to do it, as nostalgia can distort like nothing else, but far too often it's a convenient way to dismiss an attempt at detailing a period of time by assuming that person is just subjectively reconstructing it from their own unique experiences.
SYSTEM-J
I just don't think prog was "hugely popular" from 2003 onwards. All your evidence of that is just circular (prog DJs continued to play prog). Its domination subsided and that era was back dropped by the collapse of the superclub scene that had been the genre's domain. It probably seemed different in the US, but I've literally got crates of dance music magazines from 2004 onwards and my memory is certainly not of prog being epicentral.
the-sixth
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I just don't think prog was "hugely popular" from 2003 onwards. All your evidence of that is just circular (prog DJs continued to play prog). Its domination subsided and that era was back dropped by the collapse of the superclub scene that had been the genre's domain. It probably seemed different in the US, but I've literally got crates of dance music magazines from 2004 onwards and my memory is certainly not of prog being epicentral.
I'd concur with that.
It certainly changed. It was the era of Probspot, Ozgur Can, Remy and Roland K, Perry O Neil and all that coldharbor sound stuff.
At least for me anyway gone were the 12 minute sprawling soundscapes. It all got very commercial and the darker stuff was harder to find so I think many just moved on.
DJ RANN
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I just don't think prog was "hugely popular" from 2003 onwards. All your evidence of that is just circular (prog DJs continued to play prog). Its domination subsided and that era was back dropped by the collapse of the superclub scene that had been the genre's domain. It probably seemed different in the US, but I've literally got crates of dance music magazines from 2004 onwards and my memory is certainly not of prog being epicentral.
I'm sorry but I'm going to flat out disagree with this. Maybe it's total domination had peaked but to link prog to the demise and collapse of superclubs is a painfully rudimentary assessment of what was going on to dance music and the club scene as a whole. If anything it was the demise of trance that led to the superclubs dying and really these clubs trying to take on prog was a last ditch effort to keep up with the times. case in point; this very thread is about cream as much as it is about Sasha, and when you say Cream, your first thought isn't deep prog - it's pumping trance which died as we knew it circa 2002/3. Cue ASOT.
More importantly, and back to the main point, while other genres were certainly growing (however ill fated and short lived) prog was doing just fine in it's new rendition from 2002 to 2005 or so.
With the tracklist starting out with...guess what? Dousk, who we just mentioned. In fact that whole first hour is the personification of prog at that time, which was pretty damn popular. The latter half of the mix turns in to pretty e progressive breaks (although i never had much love for it as it was all some samey).
Right around that time, I went to bedrock in Charing Cross where digweed was playing a 6 hour set which was exactly this sound all night.
Upstairs was the S.O.S. crew (Demi, Omid, Desyn) playing this and even chunkier prog. The place was packed from beginning to end with a line out the door even when we left around 3am.
One sparrow does not a summer make etc, but my experience and knowing some of those guys was that prog was doing just fine, In fact it culminated in what they call a milestone of their essential mix in 2006, which again doesn't really indicate the assertion that prog wasn't front and center.
SYSTEM-J
quote:
Originally posted by DJ RANN
I'm sorry but I'm going to flat out disagree with this. Maybe it's total domination had peaked but to link prog to the demise and collapse of superclubs is a painfully rudimentary assessment of what was going on to dance music and the club scene as a whole.
I'm hardly blaming prog's relative popularity for bringing down superclubs. I said the era was back-dropped by the collapse of superclubs, particularly in the UK. That said...
quote:
If anything it was the demise of trance that led to the superclubs dying and really these clubs trying to take on prog was a last ditch effort to keep up with the times.
You're not exactly painting a picture of a genre in rude health here.
If we're now using the Essential Mix as a barometer of popularity, I suggest looking at who played the show in 2002. James Holden, Parks & Wilson, Sasha & Digweed, Circulation, Danny Howells, Hernan Cattaneo, Rui Da Silva, Sander Kleinenberg, John Digweed (again), Sasha (again)... That looks like a genre that's pretty damn popular.
In 2006, by contrast, we have your mates SOS and... one hour from Digweed. That's it. "Front and centre" indeed.
DJ RANN
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I'm hardly blaming prog's relative popularity for bringing down superclubs. I said the era was back-dropped by the collapse of superclubs, particularly in the UK. That said...
And what I'm saying is that two events don't necessarily correlate, and this case that's especially true.
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
You're not exactly painting a picture of a genre in rude health here.
That's becuase the demise of the superclub was a lot more about generational and cyclical change and them being tied so heavily to particular movement that had died a quick and painful death. By jumping on the popular prog bandwagon, it didn't do them any favors as prog isn't, and never and never was about that big room sound these clubs catered to. Smaller intimate venues has always been the defacto standard, so again, superclubs jumping on prog if anything highlights how big prog was, not a indication that these former trance clubs died becuase of prog itself dying.
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
If we're now using the Essential Mix as a barometer of popularity, I suggest looking at who played the show in 2002. James Holden, Parks & Wilson, Sasha & Digweed, Circulation, Danny Howells, Hernan Cattaneo, Rui Da Silva, Sander Kleinenberg, John Digweed (again), Sasha (again)... That looks like a genre that's pretty damn popular.
In 2006, by contrast, we have your mates SOS and... one hour from Digweed. That's it. "Front and centre" indeed.
Agreed, but again the jump has been made from 2002 to 2006 with you excluding everything in between. Frankly I'm amazed prog got a look in by 2006 as it was well and truly on it's last legs by then, but if you look at 2003, 2004 and even 2005 they're still littered with either prog DJ's or guys who were playing prog at the time (Scumfrog, Futureshock, Pete Gooding, Carl Cox, Sander Kleinenberg, Matthew Dekay, Timo Maas, Desyn Masiello, Dave Seaman, Paolo Mojo, Behrouz, James Zabiela etc).
Having said that, really by this point (2005), Essential mix was less breaking new music, moreso following it and IMO by then Tong had become to dance music was Jay Leno was to jokes.
So no, we shouldn't really use the EM as the barometer but I did notice you omitted the 2005 prog essential mixes from Sharam, Deep Dish, Andy cato, Max Graham and.......
Sasha who won 2005 "mix of the year"....for a prog set.
This aside, I was clubbing pretty regularly then both in London and occasionally oop north, and had a plethora of prog clubs to chose from on just about any given weekend.
Sure, other sub genres were popular fledglings at the time, popping up everywhere and probably more shiny to some people but to flat out discount progs popularity as if it died and was hastily buried in a hole in 2002 is plainly erroneous.
SYSTEM-J
quote:
Originally posted by DJ RANN
Sure, other sub genres were popular fledglings at the time, popping up everywhere and probably more shiny to some people but to flat out discount progs popularity as if it died and was hastily buried in a hole in 2002 is plainly erroneous.
You'd have to twist my words ("Its domination subsided") pretty damn hard to conclude I'm saying it died in 2002. It's fairly obvious what happened - from 2003 onward it gradually faded off, year on year, until by 2006 it was clearly out of favour. I mention the superclub collapse because it was a symbol of the steeply declining club attendances and record sales in that period. So even the big genres of that period were existing in the middle of a scene that was declining steeply in popularity.
quote:
Frankly I'm amazed prog got a look in by 2006 as it was well and truly on it's last legs by then
quote:
my experience and knowing some of those guys was that prog was doing just fine, In fact it culminated in what they call a milestone of their essential mix in 2006, which again doesn't really indicate the assertion that prog wasn't front and center
Right.
DJ RANN
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
You'd have to twist my words ("Its domination subsided") pretty damn hard to conclude I'm saying it died in 2002. It's fairly obvious what happened - from 2003 onward it gradually faded off, year on year, until by 2006 it was clearly out of favour. I mention the superclub collapse because it was a symbol of the steeply declining club attendances and record sales in that period. So even the big genres of that period were existing in the middle of a scene that was declining steeply in popularity.
I'm not really sure that's right either. Over 40% of the EM's in 2005 were prog, more so than any other genre. I kinda think (and it's completely anecdotal based on my experiences) that prog, as it morphed, actually grew from 2002 to 2005 and then sharply began to fall off and by 2006 it was dying.
Record sales is slightly a misnomer in term of a measurement of the scene. By 2005 online access has heavily multiplied and a lot of physical sales were moving to pirate or digital. Several records stored in london I knew gave up because they just couldn't compete. So it wasn't as if music was being less consumed, it was just purchased or accessed in different ways. For exmaple. Itunes was launched in late 2001 and by 2005 had become the largest online music store, killing off the likes of tower records and many HMV's and local musis shops.
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Right.
You're missing a bit on context. Nothing else had taken prog's mantle by 2006 and IMO it was stale with no future. The SOS boys got their "milestone" but as I said before Tong was behind the times by then. I still hold firm that I'm amazed it wasn't completely dead given the content, but apparently it was still popular and nothing had filled it's place.
Nothing really replaced it as such in hurry. What broke next (at least in terms of popularity) was douchebag house with the likes of Guetta, EC twins, SHM etc, but it wasn;t reall the same demographic, really more a new generation as per the previous cycle from uplifting house and trance etc.
I suppose you could argue the rise Tech house but that seemed to be on the bubble for a long time and I can't really pinpoint the "peak".
