It's futile to try to over come your island complex
DJ RANN
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Broadly speaking, this is what happens when you neglect and alienate the working classes. The vast majority of Leave votes came from poor parochial areas that have had their industries dismantled over the last 30 years, gutting many communities of the traditional source of jobs, income and security. Anyone who can get a university education leaves these areas as quickly as possible. We have a stratified society with two halves that don't communicate.
The real issue of this referendum is about immigration. A huge number of people are worried about the levels of immigration in the UK at a time when the government are cutting funding to public services year on year. People who are already scrabbling for low-paying jobs in deprived regions fear foreign workers who will do the job for even less money. Communities that have been largely unaltered for up to 100 years have been radically transformed by migrant influx. With free movement of workers in the EU, nobody could give them any assurances that this was under control or that it could be stopped if it went too far.
Both the Conservative government and Labour opposition have promised controls on immigration; promised to cut the numbers of net migration. But immigration has gone up and the Tories have drastically failed on their promise. Worse, both parties have failed to deliver any credible policy on how they would even go about reducing immigration whilst staying in the EU. So people fearing immigration were told that they were wrong to worry, or worse that they were simply bigoted, ignorant and racist.
In response, the Remain campaign failed to provide any positive argument for staying in the EU. Their message was largely centred on abstract issues like economics that weren't visible to the naked eye in the same way that immigration is. Their arguments of economic impact didn't have credibility to people who have just lived through the financial crisis and have lost all trust in economists and financial workers. In public debates, both sides lied and exaggerated their figures and their claims so much that the uninformed man on the street was left no wiser, and continued to stick with his gut feeling as a result.
What we found yesterday is there is an unheard and angry majority in this country who actually outnumber all the self-professed educated progressives. The solution to the problem is not to call them ignorant, racist knuckle-draggers. We really need to fix the problems with the neglected parts of the country, because people who are educated and financially secure don't tend to fear immigration or social change.
I'd recommend reading the articles John Harris has been writing in the Guardian on this subject, starting with this: http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ity-westminster. Of all the commentators I've read, he's the one who "gets it" the most.
To be honest, this is why I'm so glad Cameron is gone. He did a terrible job of attempting to reform Britain's position in the EU while doing what every Tory government has done since the 80's; trying to gut the public services sector. The net result is a disenfranchised working class who rely on those services and are more inclined to be ignorantly patriotic when looking for a fault.
Combine that with a vacuum of real leadership in the Labour party and this stops being about parties or even really the topic at hand, and it becomes an "us first" vote against the entire establishment.
judging by what's happening today (11 shadow cabinet members or better said 50%) have no resigned and plenty more MP calling for him to step down) Corbyn's days are numbered.
You're right in that the average person has no ing clue what EU bureaucracy actually is; aside from millions of pounds being spent each year on that bureaucracy, very few people can point to a specific thing that affects their daily lives, with exception of the odd farcical story such as bananas with too much bend being banned or (very) Blue cheese being a grey market commodity due to the EU imposing listeria level rules, people simply don't know what the EU governed about their daily lives, and both Remain and Leave did not put forward one single clarification of either of their stances' effect on real people.
In my mind this never should have been a referendum; this should have been precursor using the threat of leaving to renegotiate the UK's position with the EU - to allow more autonomy and/or have less "federalised" control, whilst still remaining in the union of economies.
What seems to be whispered in Westminster now, is that this all came about as a Challenge to Cameron's leadership, and Cameron tried to politik his way out of it by floating a vote on what he considered a sure thing - apparently he thought that there was no way we would leave (following his success in the scottish referendum) and by winning it would solidify his position and tell the backbenchers to STFU.
It backfired spectacularly, and the reason he apparently had to step down despite stating he would stay regardless of the vote is that the people who challenged him in the first place, called in his bet and were prepared to sink the ship if he didn't step down gracefully.
The interesting thing now is that there are a few ways the UK could still stay in:
1, use article 50 a bargaining chip to renegotiate the UK's position in Europe - in essence say to the member states, "we'll stay if you give us....." If they placate enough, it may mean a public swing towards staying and a better deal for the UK.
2, Scotland could veto the vote. It's unlikely becuase that cuts both ways; the referendum for scotland to remain wasn't vetoed so it's a little bit difficult to selectively use that tool, although it is technically possible.
3, parliament votes against it. It still legally comes down to the house to ratify the vote.
4, Another referendum. Incredibly unlikely, but given the petition is now at 3m+ (the largest in UK history, it's still a possibility. and the pollsters are saying if we did round 2, it would be a landslide for stay.....
Lira
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
No, no, no Lira. People like Jones and Corbyn are exactly why the British left have become completely detached from their traditional voters - poor people. The left now only speaks to cosmopolitan and metropolitan youth. The establishment right continues to over the poor. In the circumstances, Nigel Farage is the only politician who appeared to speak directly to the concerns of the ordinary people.
That makes a lot of sense. Jones talked a lot about working class alienation, but I've noticed that for all the support behind Corbyn, it seems to be restricted to London and mostly the young, much to Labour's despair.
I wonder if he'll leave the no-confidence vote unscathed...
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Corbyn has absolutely no idea how to connect with working class voters. He's pissing away what's left of Labour's vote share every day. Their own internal polling shows that up to 30% of their voters in last year's election wouldn't vote for them right now. He's been elected by an online campaign of young, university educated social justice advocates who are simply not large enough a demographic to win an election, and are too self-contained on social media to understand why.
Out of curiosity: If the Tories are split, Labour is hopeless, and Lib Dems are still licking their wounds after the coalition, this does mean it's Ukip's moment, right? Please tell me it ain't so :(
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
The reason Corbyn put no effort in to the referendum campaign is because he's a life long Eurosceptic.
I knew this much, and thought he only joined the Remain camp because he doesn't have enough clout to go against a Labour majority within the party, but I thought voters from the Labour heartlands were also a factor. I guess not then :p
quote:
Originally posted by DJ RANN
Scotland could veto the vote.
I wonder if Nicola Sturgeon can pull it off. It would be interesting to watch.
Alex
Is V for Vendetta gonna happen 4realz?
Lira
Nah, "Remember, remember the 5th of November" has a better ring to it than "forget soon, the 23rd of June" :p
ViceroySF
quote:
Originally posted by Redd
classic Trump, he must be doing it on purpose :stongue:
White Genocide is inevitable.
ViceroySF
Does your 401K give you 20% a year, just wondering? Wow we will be supporting a bunch of serfs in 2600.
DJ RANN
Interestingly, I'm starting to see the potential fallout of the brexit being a lot deeper for the UK in terms of global impact;
Now that the UK will have far less power in Europe, especailly when it comes to lobbying the other big two (france & germany) the UK's position with the USA is weakened - in the past, the UK has acted like a conduit (also poodle) for certain American interests/initiatives that needed to be bridged to the rest of Europe. Now it seems certain analysts here are saying the Uk will be less useful and have far less sway in such matters. The "special relationship" may have just got a little less special.
On another note, can some of my countrymen explain something I'm seeing on social media a lot in the last few days?.....
Basically, I'm seeing people stating that now we are post vote, the "truth" is starting to surface about the Leave campaign's underhand tactics, and according to some sources that are trying to go public without outing themselves, there was a concerted effort by Boris and Farage to misrepresent the facts, and apparently there could be legal repercussions.
Is any of this true, or is just sour grapes?
Trance-M
Boris Johnson says he won't run for prime minister.
So now the other half feels being ed as well.
Bet many feel like this:
SYSTEM-J
quote:
Originally posted by DJ RANN
Basically, I'm seeing people stating that now we are post vote, the "truth" is starting to surface about the Leave campaign's underhand tactics, and according to some sources that are trying to go public without outing themselves, there was a concerted effort by Boris and Farage to misrepresent the facts, and apparently there could be legal repercussions.
Haven't heard anything about legal repercussions - how can you sue a politician for lying? It's fairly obvious they lied or misrepresented a lot of things. It's also becoming increasingly clear that most Leave voters had no idea what "leaving the EU" actually meant.
Lira
Not so much that politicians can be prosecuted for lying, but apparently Brexit can't happen.
Is there a legal expert among the resident Poms?
ViceroySF
10%- 15% In just a Couple of weeks shorting the pound
How's your 401K doing? :haha:
Who gives a peep about the U.K anymore? I'm glad my family left when red hair blonde hair grey eyes blue eyes were the norm.
I just saw Posh spice promoting a remake of the Spice Girls - Wannabe...filled with mutz brown black Muslim women...that ain't Britain motherers...that is obscene.
In my hometown of SF there was an issue with one MUSLIM Woman with a hijab being refused services, she went to city council, but I'll tell you, in SF we have all sorts of people from all over the spectrum, we just don't want intolerant MUSLIMS ruining what has taken us decades to accomplish, a true melting pot.
Let me tell you something else, some of the refugees coming in to Europe and the U.K. Are ISLAMOFASCISTS WAHABI SALAFIST FANATICS waiting for a cell activation from their raghead masters inside some ing cave.
