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US Supreme Court ducks decision on 10 commandments (pg. 3)
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by neoh
Funny, there hasen't been this many problems with society since they banned prayer in schools |
Post Hoc/Complex Cause fallacy here. You can't assume that the the banning of school prayer was the cause of this - it's more likely to be the complete and utter lack of discipline in childhood.
| quote: | | it's not always about the religious aspect. The 10 commandments are a set of rules of all humanity, some are even laws. |
They're a set of rules for one (or a few) particular religions. Whether or not the following of those rules results in positive consequences is not the issue here.
| quote: | | Can we say, because "Thou shalt not steal" is on the 10 commandments, that we should begin stealing? |
I don't think anybody was implying that taking away the tablets meant doing the exact opposite of each commandment.
| quote: | | It's a peacful religion, if it's concidered a religion.. it used to be a standard way of life. |
It used to be a standard way of life mostly because of forced conversions. Besides, how do you define "standard?" Let's not forget that there have always been millions of Jews, billions of Hindu...
| quote: | 1. Thou shalt not have other gods before me.
- It doesen't mean God should be your only savior, it can also mean "Don't dwell on material things, you dont get to keep them in the afterlife." |
...which requires a belief in the afterlife. Not to mention a belief in spirituality (nonmaterial things). You can redefine this any way you want, but it's most certainly a religious reference.
| quote: | 2. You shall not make of yourself a carved image.
- Don't worship the tree's, they wont get you . |
How do you know that? I'm as keen to believe that trees will give you as much as some invisible intangible entity that no one's been able to conclusively identify.
| quote: | 3. Thall shalt not take the LORDS name in VAIN.
- God damnit IS considered a swear word in any part of the world. Not because it's religious. Just like , and , and the rest of them. It's telling you not to swear. |
"Don't swear." Are we in pre-school here? Anyway, it's considered a "swear word" because of the obvious religious indoctrination of children.
| quote: | 4. Remember the sabbath day and keep it holy.
- Time with your children can still be considered a sabbath day. |
Sab·bath
n.
1. The seventh day of the week, Saturday, observed as the day of rest and worship by the Jews and some Christian sects.
2. The first day of the week, Sunday, observed as the day of rest and worship by most Christians.
The American Heritage Dictionary seems to disagree with you on this one.
| quote: | 5. Honor your mother and father.
- Show respect for your parents. This is used in every day life, it's just a part of the christian religion. |
I'm sure this is a great thing to do, but if it's such common sense, then why does it need to be a commandment?
| quote: | 6. You shall not murder.
- Gee. Imagine that as a 10 commandment. |
I don't have to imagine, it's there. This is also in our Criminal Code, so I don't think we need any religious references to it.
| quote: | 7. Dont commity adultry
- Don't cheat on your wife. Do you think religion put this law there? You know not to cheat on your wife, wether christian or buddhist. You don't do it. |
Actually, I'd have to say that religion did put this law there, since bigamy is actually legal in several places.
| quote: | 8. You shall not steal
- Steal a car, denounce your religion. |
What does "denounce your religion" have to do with this?
| quote: | 9. Dont bear false witness against your neighbour.
- Take a guess at what that means. |
Basically saying, don't lie in court. I don't think we need religion to teach us that lying in court is inherently harmful to the judicial process.
| quote: | 10. Dont covet your neighbours house, wife, car, or his money.
- Don't be a greedy little , it wont get you anywhere. Work for a living, like your neighbour did. |
Actually, coveting is jealousy, not greed. In any case, jealousy is a human emotion, whether we like it or not - yet another commandment telling us to fight our animalistic (territorial) instincts. Lovely.
| quote: | | The 10 commandments aren't just a religious tablet, they are our laws. Our MORAL laws, they keep us on our toes, they tell us what's right and whats wrong. Not because God said so. |
Moral laws decided on by who? That's right, the Christians! (Or maybe the Jews... who cares). Maybe I'd like someone else to tell me what's right or wrong - perhaps the courts can do that?
| quote: | | Leave it in the courthouse, and follow it in your daily life. |
It has no place in the courthouse. The courthouse is a house of laws, not morals.
| quote: | | Even satanists believe in God. |
But atheists do not. And Pagans don't believe in a single "God" either. |
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| WhoaNellie1487 |
| quote: | See there miss/mister.....Catholics are Christians just as much as Baptists, Luterans, Anglicans, Pentacostals, etc. In fact with the exception of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, ALL Christian faiths are an off-shoot of catholicism. The whole term "protestant" comes from Martin Luthers protest of the way in which the Catholic church was organized.
So, basically said, your religion is Christianity. Whether or not you choose to think so is up to you. But there is no reliable argument otherwise. |
Miss,would be the correct word(title).
Catholics,luthrens,baptists,episcopalians...etc..Those are people part of religion. Religion is man made..
Christianity is a belief in God,a relationship-It's not a religion. It's a whole other ball game when you are actually a Christian. I'm nondenominational,which means I'm not religious, or part of a religion.. The world views Christianity as a religion,but it's not.
But,no you are puting words in my mouth. I said I'm not part of a religion. Christianity isn't my religion. I don't have a religion.
You don't understand, because obviously you aren't a Christian..If you were,You'd know otherwise. Until then,you might not want to pick this bone with me. I live it,so I do know.
Religion can tie you up, God can set you free. Notice the difference? |
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| WhoaNellie1487 |
| Oh...and to add.. Christianity is who you believe in,Not what you do. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487
Miss,would be the correct word(title).
Catholics,luthrens,baptists,episcopalians...etc..Those are people part of religion. Religion is man made..
Christianity is a belief in God,a relationship-It's not a religion. It's a whole other ball game when you are actually a Christian. I'm nondenominational,which means I'm not religious, or part of a religion.. The world views Christianity as a religion,but it's not.
But,no you are puting words in my mouth. I said I'm not part of a religion. Christianity isn't my religion. I don't have a religion. |
Honestly, what are you talking about?
If you follow the teachings of Christianity, then Christianity is your religion. If you believe in a god but not the Christian teachings, then you are either some other religion or you are a deist.
"Non-denominational" is basically a cute semantic for "secular." It means you sort of believe in the teachings of your chosen religion, but don't follow any of them closely enough to actually fit into a denomination. Basically, it's saying that you believe in the writings of the New Testament, but aren't really sure which interpretation (Catholic, Lutheran, etc.) to go with. It's rather similar to Jews who aren't sure whether they're orthodox, conservative, or reform. This does not change the fact that their religion is Judaism.
If you're trying to say that you're "non-denominational", period, as opposed to "non-denominational Christian", then you're a deist for all intents and purposes. Deists believe in a God but don't believe in any particular religious teachings.
Please, get your facts straight. And please, stop using terms like "relationship with God" - is God your drinking buddy? Do you go to movies with him?
| quote: | | You don't understand, because obviously you aren't a Christian..If you were,You'd know otherwise. Until then,you might not want to pick this bone with me. I live it,so I do know. |
Oh, how I love that Christian arrogance. You're saying what, exactly, that we're incapable of understanding God unless we're Christian? Or are you extending that further to say that we're incapable of understanding the concept of religion in general unless we're Christian?
| quote: | | Religion can tie you up, God can set you free. Notice the difference? |
No, I don't. Whether or not you are religious or secular in your beliefs, you still belong to your particular religion. Christianity is a religion. All you've effectively said is that you are more "open-minded" than other Christians because you don't go to church or follow any rituals - while some may say that this simply makes one lazy and not open-minded at all, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say it simply makes one indecisive and lacking any in-depth knowledge of oneself and one's beliefs. |
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| WhoaNellie1487 |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Honestly, what are you talking about?
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Let me take a wild stab in the dark here..You're either Atheist or Agnostic,aren't you?
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If you follow the teachings of Christianity, then Christianity is your religion. If you believe in a god but not the Christian teachings, then you are either some other religion or you are a deist. |
That's not true. Christianity is a faith in God, It's a relationship with God. Like I've mentioned,It's totally different when you actually live it.
| quote: | "Non-denominational" is basically a cute semantic for "secular." It means you sort of believe in the teachings of your chosen religion, but don't follow any of them closely enough to actually fit into a denomination. Basically, it's saying that you believe in the writings of the New Testament, but aren't really sure which interpretation (Catholic, Lutheran, etc.) to go with. It's rather similar to Jews who aren't sure whether they're orthodox, conservative, or reform. This does not change the fact that their religion is Judaism.
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You really don't get it. Nondenominational means I have no religion.. I believe in God's saving grace,and I believe that Jesus has died on the cross to pay for our sins, and I believe in God's word. I know what I'm talking about, I'm living it..You obviously don't know. I'm sure I don't want to get tied up in religion. My father used to be luthren,he's been freed from that. Anyway,Who are you to tell me what I believe?
| quote: |
If you're trying to say that you're "non-denominational", period, as opposed to "non-denominational Christian", then you're a deist for all intents and purposes. Deists believe in a God but don't believe in any particular religious teachings. |
Nondenominational-Without religion. God isn't religion. God is the saviour. I don't believe in religion.. Religion is man made.
| quote: | | Please, get your facts straight. And please, stop using terms like "relationship with God" - is God your drinking buddy? Do you go to movies with him? |
Freedom of speech,further more the truth-I can say what is real.I'm not trying to shut you up,now am I?
Keep in mind. I have my facts straight. Question is,do you?
God is our heavenly father..and many times in the Bible He refers to Himself as our friend. How are you supposed to have a faith in someone,and not get to know them personally? Having a relationship with God, is what Christianity is all about. Christian means " Christ like ".
| quote: | | Oh, how I love that Christian arrogance. You're saying what, exactly, that we're incapable of understanding God unless we're Christian? Or are you extending that further to say that we're incapable of understanding the concept of religion in general unless we're Christian? |
Arrogance? Nope. No arrogance here. But,I do know what I'm saying. I'm not blinded by the false statements. You're completely capable to know things,but you choose not to. That's not my fault. That's your personal choice. But, no you really don't understand God.. How can you when you don't believe he exists? When you live it, It's a completely different story... a whole other ball game.
| quote: | | No, I don't. Whether or not you are religious or secular in your beliefs, you still belong to your particular religion. Christianity is a religion. All you've effectively said is that you are more "open-minded" than other Christians because you don't go to church or follow any rituals - while some may say that this simply makes one lazy and not open-minded at all, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say it simply makes one indecisive and lacking any in-depth knowledge of oneself and one's beliefs. |
I'm not part of a religion,again the world views it as a religion. But,It isn't. Christianity is a faith, a belief in God.
Futher more,That's not true,Who said I don't go to church?
That's right, Christianity doesn't have rituals. That's why it's not a religion. I'm not indecisive either. You really don't know what you're talking about. I think that's pretty sad. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487
Let me take a wild stab in the dark here..You're either Atheist or Agnostic,aren't you? |
Brilliant deduction.
| quote: | | That's not true. Christianity is a faith in God, It's a relationship with God. Like I've mentioned,It's totally different when you actually live it. |
You can repeat that as many times as you like, but it will still make no sense.
| quote: | | ...I believe in God's saving grace,and I believe that Jesus has died on the cross to pay for our sins, and I believe in God's word. |
That makes you some sort of Christian.
| quote: | | My father used to be luthren,he's been freed from that. |
Meaning what, converted? Turned atheist/agnostic? Or just got too lazy to go to church?
| quote: | | Anyway,Who are you to tell me what I believe? |
At what point did I do this? I only told you what denomination your beliefs place you in.
| quote: | | Nondenominational-Without religion. God isn't religion. God is the saviour. I don't believe in religion.. Religion is man made. |
Nondenominational - without religious denomination, not without religion. There's a difference. What you are essentially trying to say is that God is a fact, not just a religious belief (which is your basis for saying that the 10 commandments don't favour any religion), and I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you this but, once again, repeating it over and over again will not make it true.
| quote: | | Freedom of speech,further more the truth-I can say what is real.I'm not trying to shut you up,now am I? |
You can say what is real, but nobody else can? Nobody is arguing with a person's right to put the 10 commandments on display - they are arguing with the sensibility of putting it in a courthouse. The Supreme Court, by waving off the case as if it's insignificant, is trying to shut people up, and I find that sad.
| quote: | | Keep in mind. I have my facts straight. |
I'm keeping no such thing in mind.
| quote: | | Question is,do you? |
Yes.
| quote: | | God is our heavenly father.. |
False.
| quote: | | and many times in the Bible He refers to Himself as our friend. |
You mean, the cult leaders that wrote the Bible refer to him as our friend.
| quote: | | How are you supposed to have a faith in someone,and not get to know them personally? Having a relationship with God, is what Christianity is all about. Christian means " Christ like ". |
...no comment...
| quote: | | Arrogance? Nope. No arrogance here. But,I do know what I'm saying. I'm not blinded by the false statements. |
Clearly, you are!
| quote: | | You're completely capable to know things,but you choose not to. That's not my fault. That's your personal choice. |
Or perhaps it's because I actually take a rational perspective to religion, rather than believing what my daddy and my Sunday School told me to?
| quote: | | But, no you really don't understand God.. How can you when you don't believe he exists? |
I can't. That's because there's nothing to understand.
| quote: | | When you live it, It's a completely different story... a whole other ball game. |
Again, something you've repeated over and over again, it still will not make it hold any water.
| quote: | | I'm not part of a religion,again the world views it as a religion. But,It isn't. Christianity is a faith, a belief in God. |
The definition of Christianity isn't based on world view, it's based on... definition.
| quote: | | That's right, Christianity doesn't have rituals. That's why it's not a religion. |
What?
To actually make a point out of this nonsensical, aimless, frustrating discussion, this is the problem with the "moral majority". Nobody ever staked a claim against Christianity that it was false or that it was on trial - they just want the courthouse to be separated from ANY kind of religion.
And yet, as soon as they feel even the slightest bit threatened, the Christian fundamentalists start an immediate preachfest, spewing pious [nonsense] and trying to force their beliefs on everyone else.
Freedom of religion seems to be fine with everyone until it means that Christianity might have to get out of the driver's seat and sit in the back of the bus with Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and all the other major religions. Once that happens, all hell breaks loose.
Anyone else see the utter hypocrisy and xenophobia inherent in this? |
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| WhoaNellie1487 |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
You can repeat that as many times as you like, but it will still make no sense.
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Let me just say this first off. There are none so blind,as to those who do NOT want to see.
| quote: | | That makes you some sort of Christian. |
Not " some sort " I'm a Christian.
| quote: | | Meaning what, converted? Turned atheist/agnostic? Or just got too lazy to go to church? |
Meaning he figured out the way. And don't you dare be talking about my father like that. Just because I'm nondenominational doesn't mean I don't go to church,because I do attend church.
You need to learn a little respect...Actually a lot.
| quote: | | At what point did I do this? I only told you what denomination your beliefs place you in. |
You don't know. You have no idea. Not the slightest clue. I know what I am,You don't.
| quote: | | Nondenominational - without religious denomination, not without religion. There's a difference. What you are essentially trying to say is that God is a fact, not just a religious belief (which is your basis for saying that the 10 commandments don't favour any religion), and I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you this but, once again, repeating it over and over again will not make it true. |
I'm not religious. Simple as that. You aren't sorry. So don't say things that aren't true. You're repeating things over and over again too. To add, Most of them aren't true..infact almost all of them aren't true.
| quote: | | You can say what is real, but nobody else can? Nobody is arguing with a person's right to put the 10 commandments on display - they are arguing with the sensibility of putting it in a courthouse. The Supreme Court, by waving off the case as if it's insignificant, is trying to shut people up, and I find that sad. |
Not just me. But, I'm not lying here. We have every righ there in the USA to have the 10 commandments there. They support many of the laws that are in place, under the government.
| quote: | | I'm keeping no such thing in mind. |
One word,Stubborn.
No,you don't. You are just making accusations.
True,God is our heavenly father.Even if you don't want to accept it.
| quote: | | You mean, the cult leaders that wrote the Bible refer to him as our friend. |
No cult leaders,God speaks out against cults. God wrote the Bible THROUGH man, it isn't written BY man. Big difference.
Nope, I'm not arrogant. If I were,I wouldn't be saved. I've realized I need God.Takes a lot of guts to say you do.
| quote: | | Or perhaps it's because I actually take a rational perspective to religion, rather than believing what my daddy and my Sunday School told me to? |
Again,you had better be showing respect towards my father. He isn't
" Daddy " Get it? got it? Good. I'm not irrational. Because you can't understand what I'm saying,you are going to try and stick names to me. That's not fair. I learned for myself what I need. I don't do things because others tell me too. I made the choice myself.
| quote: | | I can't. That's because there's nothing to understand. |
Then what's the big fuss about? If you don't believe in Him.Don't bother others who do,ok? I don't go around harassing Atheists just because they don't believe in God.But,I won't let them sit there and lie.
| quote: | | Again, something you've repeated over and over again, it still will not make it hold any water. |
You don't understand,and you never will until you open your eyes,and your mind. But,I'm not going to be holding my breath about that.
| quote: | The definition of Christianity isn't based on world view, it's based on... definition.
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You don't understand, So let's drop it.
Heavens,must I explain everything? Rituals..Religions have rituals. Christianity doesn't have rituals.
| quote: | | To actually make a point out of this nonsensical, aimless, frustrating discussion, this is the problem with the "moral majority". Nobody ever staked a claim against Christianity that it was false or that it was on trial - they just want the courthouse to be separated from ANY kind of religion. |
It's not support any kind of religion. What church are the 10 commandments supporting? Answer me that... Ok.So just because the 10 commandments say " thou shalt not murder " Do we have to remove that from the law to? How about stealing? Do we remove that from the law too?
| quote: | And yet, as soon as they feel even the slightest bit threatened, the Christian fundamentalists start an immediate preachfest, spewing pious [nonsense] and trying to force their beliefs on everyone else.
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Nonsense? The only person speaking nonsense,my friend is you. I'm not forcing my beliefs on you, but I'm not going to let you lie about my beliefs.
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Freedom of religion seems to be fine with everyone until it means that Christianity might have to get out of the driver's seat and sit in the back of the bus with Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and all the other major religions. Once that happens, all hell breaks loose. |
That's bull. It's not fair for anyone to be dogging on our rights.
| quote: | | Anyone else see the utter hypocrisy and xenophobia inherent in this? |
Xenophobia? None here. No hypocrisy either.
You need to show tolerance,everyones always telling Christian to. Well we do, now it's YOUR turn. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by nic01445
it isn't the importance of the 10 commandments that makes this controversial. it is the fact that they are in a courthouse. Putting the 10 commandments in a courthouse is only the begining of pro-christian bias in the courthouse. the law SHOULD be without religion. If we allow one religion to implement it's believes into the judicial system, then members of other religions have predispositions when they enter that courthouse. What is considered "wrong" in one religion may not be considered "wrong" in another. This would defeat the whole idea of a fair trial. |
Well I guess they should demolish the US Supreme Court right quick!
Moses center stage on the US Supreme Court East Pediment
10 Commandment depiction located at eye-level on the inside of the oak doors into the courtroom.
And on the south frieze:
Moses in the Surpeme Court
Then again they also have Confucius, how horrible! Off with religion demolish the blasphemy of this court today!
I'm curious, why again did the Supreme court under the gaze of Moses refuse to hear a 10 commandment case?:rolleyes: |
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| Izzy |
| I agree completely with yoepus. i think it's ridiculous to make such a big deal out of this case. what's wrong with looking at the 10 commandments as a historical reference to civil law or even as a fable to prehistoric morality. or look at it as a peice of art. so what if it's religious. are we going to disallow paintings in the courts that were created by men because it's sexist, or how about taking out all references made by white men cause that could be contrued as racist. point is the statue has no bearing or any impact on the desicions made by the court of law. i think people need to just relax about the whole issue and stop being so PC. just to let you all know i am not a religoius person so i'm not argueing for it to stay from that point of view. |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
Heh, those statues in the US supreme court have a sort of cultural and historical value, so in that sense they shouldn't be removed. But if the only value of those commandments is religious or "moral", then I don't see why they should exist in a court.
And Whoanellie, whatever you say, Christianity is a religion, and the 10 commandments are not the optimal and sufficient rules for a society to function. |
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| WhoaNellie1487 |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
And Whoanellie, whatever you say, Christianity is a religion, and the 10 commandments are not the optimal and sufficient rules for a society to function. |
You all don't have to type out my full name, lol it's ok if you call me Nellie. I've said that quite a few times..
Anyway, It's not a religion.
But, the 10 commandments are extremely important.. and it's funny how no one ever answers the questions I ask. :rolleyes: |
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| devonian rabbit |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Well I guess they should demolish the US Supreme Court right quick! |
The context of the Supreme Court's depictions of Moses and the Ten Commandments is quite different than Moore's monument.
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Moses center stage on the US Supreme Court East Pediment |
Have you noticed that the tablets Moses is holding in this depiction on the East Pediment, are blank? That is because "God" is not the focus of the sculpture... Historical lawgivers from the east are the focus. The overall focus of the architectural decoration at the Supreme Court is Law. Not "God's Law".
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10 Commandment depiction located at eye-level on the inside of the oak doors into the courtroom. |
I don't know about this particular engraving, but I know on the East Frieze, the roman numerals I-X are displayed, and the sculptor, Adolph Weinman, claimed they symbolize the Bill of Rights.
| quote: | And on the south frieze:
[URL=http://www.oyez.org/oyez/tour/frieze-south-from-courtroom-entry]Moses in the Surpeme Court[/URL |
Once again... context is the key difference. Moses is displayed in a historical context, alongside historical lawgivers in chronological order.
Here is an image of the South Wall Frieze:
Here is the North Wall Frieze:
The lawgivers are shown in order from oldest to most recent.. In order, they are:
Menes, Hammurabi, Moses, Solomon, Lycurgus, Solon, Drace, Confucious, Octavian, Justinian, Mohammed, Charlemagne, King John, St. Louis, Hugo Grotius, William Blackstone, John Marshall, and Napoleon.
| quote: | | Then again they also have Confucius, how horrible! Off with religion demolish the blasphemy of this court today! |
Thats right.. Confucious and Solon stand beside Moses on the East Pediment (where Moses is holding blank tablets). Our form of government/law owes far, far more to the pagan Solon than to Moses.
All of those depictions are quite different than Moore's monument, which was placed with the explicit, and publicly stated purpose of claiming that the government is under the rule of the Judeo-Christian god.
richard |
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