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US Supreme Court ducks decision on 10 commandments (pg. 4)
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487
You all don't have to type out my full name, lol it's ok if you call me Nellie. I've said that quite a few times.. |
Ok...Nellie...
| quote: | | Anyway, It's not a religion. |
Well, as far as I know, a religion is a belief in god(s), followed by faith in holy scriptures, ceremonies, etc. Now, you believe in god, and you also believe in what the bible tells us about Jesus. You probably also conduct ceremonies such as prayers, baptising and so on. So you basically have all the aspects of a religion. Please tell me what exactly is it that makes christianity deviate from a standardised and accepted meaning of religion. You're the first christian I've heard of that says christianity is not a religion. You also might explain then what is it that christianity lacks, and that other religions have in them, say what makes Islam a religion.
| quote: | | But, the 10 commandments are extremely important.. |
I'm not saying that they are completely mistaken, but what I am saying is that they're insufficient and that some of them are meaningless. First they consider the existance of a god as a proven fact. Secondly they claim their god is the only and all mighty god. You simply can't take those claims seriously. Aside from that, they don't mention some socially unacceptable behaviours, such as fights, rape, slavery, etc. They're not something a modern law should be based on.
| quote: | | and it's funny how no one ever answers the questions I ask. :rolleyes: |
That's cause I'm too lazy to search back through the thread to find them. |
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| anuneventrade |
Okay, I was going to stay out of this argument, but after reading a few particular things, I cannot.
| quote: | Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487
Not " some sort " I'm a Christian. |
Didn't you previously state that you had no religion? Doesn't this statement go against that? Christianity is a religion, and you just stated you are part of it.
| quote: | | Just because I'm nondenominational doesn't mean I don't go to church,because I do attend church. |
Once again, another thing religious people do. You could actually call it a ritual, on that note, because it is something done every Sunday.
| quote: | | I'm not religious. Simple as that. |
Claiming "I am a Christian", followed by "I attend church every week", would make you religious, because you follow it.
| quote: | | Not just me. But, I'm not lying here. We have every righ there in the USA to have the 10 commandments there. They support many of the laws that are in place, under the government. |
Once again, the use of "we" would say that you are part of a religious organization.
No, you don't have every right. In case you didn't read correctly, the first ammendment mentions that the law will not favor any religion. In placing the ten commandments in front of the courthouse, you are placing a particular religion in front of it. There are many, many religions that don't follow the bible or it's commandments, and are extreemly offended by this, and I see why. Clearly, you do not.
| quote: | | True,God is our heavenly father.Even if you don't want to accept it. |
This right here is a prime example of trying to force your beliefs upon others. So Digi doesn't believe in God. Who are you to comment on this? On that note, who is he to comment on your beliefs? Beliefs are what they are. Beliefs. You cannot force someone to see things the way you do. You can educate them in your ways, however, the path they choose is the one they choose.
| quote: | | Then what's the big fuss about? If you don't believe in Him.Don't bother others who do,ok? I don't go around harassing Atheists just because they don't believe in God.But,I won't let them sit there and lie. |
You won't let them sit there and lie? Sounds like harassing what they believe in, now doesn't it?
| quote: | | Heavens,must I explain everything? Rituals..Religions have rituals. Christianity doesn't have rituals. |
Going to church every week can be considered a ritual. Reading the bible once a year can be considered a ritual. Fasting, is a ritual.
| quote: | | It's not support any kind of religion. What church are the 10 commandments supporting? Answer me that... Ok.So just because the 10 commandments say " thou shalt not murder " Do we have to remove that from the law to? How about stealing? Do we remove that from the law too? |
Goodness, must everything be explained to you as well? It's not about what CHURCH the 10 commandments support, it's about the RELIGION. Are you blind, or really just that ignorant?
One of America's good qualities is the fact that it's culture is so enriched and enhanced by the fact that there are people from all over the world, and with many different beliefs. Another fantastic thing is that there is no dominant religion, and there is no basis about religion in the law.
To place the 10 commandments in front of a courthouse is placing a favor of a certian religion. Not every religion and culture believes in the 10 commandments. To place them there, would be to go against what is good in this country.
As I stated before, to place the AMMENDMENTS would be a more practical and agreeable decision.
| quote: | | Nonsense? The only person speaking nonsense,my friend is you. I'm not forcing my beliefs on you, but I'm not going to let you lie about my beliefs. |
By saying God is our heavenly father, whether we choose to see it or not, you kind of are.
| quote: | | That's bull. It's not fair for anyone to be dogging on our rights. |
RIGHTS? RIGHTS??? What rights do you speak of? The first ammendment clearly claims that the government WILL NOT FAVOR A RELIGION. You have no reason to claim that the 10 commandments outside of a courtroom is your right.
And I agree with Digi on this case. It's always about the christians. What about the Jewish religion? Do their views count? Hindu's? Buddhists? Where are their religious testaments in front of a courtroom? Of course, they aren't there.
| quote: | | Well we do, now it's YOUR turn. |
You obviously don't, if you cannot see why this upsets so many people. Your religion is not the say all of all religions, nor is it the basis of this country. The 10 commandments have no place in front of a courtroom. |
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| devonian rabbit |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
Well, as far as I know, a religion is a belief in god(s), followed by faith in holy scriptures, ceremonies, etc. Now, you believe in god, and you also believe in what the bible tells us about Jesus. You probably also conduct ceremonies such as prayers, baptising and so on. So you basically have all the aspects of a religion. Please tell me what exactly is it that makes christianity deviate from a standardised and accepted meaning of religion. You're the first christian I've heard of that says christianity is not a religion. You also might explain then what is it that christianity lacks, and that other religions have in them, say what makes Islam a religion. |
I believe the latest spin is to call Christianity a "relationship, not a religion." It is basically just a euphemism for "religion."
richard |
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| devonian rabbit |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
Aside from that, they don't mention some socially unacceptable behaviours, such as fights, rape, slavery, etc. They're not something a modern law should be based on. |
Actually, you will find that the full text of the Ten Commandments does make reference to slavery. The 10th Commandment states:
“You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male or female slave, or his ox or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's.”
See, God doesn't have a problem with the institution of slavery... He just doesn't want you to covet your neighbor's slaves. The Bible condones slavery throughout. Many of our founders did too. Maybe that is the biblical foundation that I keep hearing our country was founded upon.. because its pretty obvious that representative democracy, separation of powers, freedom of religion, etc.. weren't derived from the Bible.
richard |
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| DaveSaenz |
| quote: | Originally posted by devonian rabbit
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I think that settles it. Thanks. :) |
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| WhoaNellie1487 |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
Well, as far as I know, a religion is a belief in god(s), followed by faith in holy scriptures, ceremonies, etc. Now, you believe in god, and you also believe in what the bible tells us about Jesus. You probably also conduct ceremonies such as prayers, baptising and so on. So you basically have all the aspects of a religion. Please tell me what exactly is it that makes christianity deviate from a standardised and accepted meaning of religion. You're the first christian I've heard of that says christianity is not a religion. You also might explain then what is it that christianity lacks, and that other religions have in them, say what makes Islam a religion. |
Yes, I believe in God. Yes, I believe in what the Bible says,Not just about Jesus, about everything it has to say. A prayer isn't a ceremony,It's a personal thing. Baptising? It's symbolizing burying the old man, and being born again basically.
I may be the first you've heard,but I assure you.I won't be the last.
Christianity lacks? christianity lacks nothing.
Islam? I don't know about Islam.
I'm a Christian, It's totally not a religion. I don't HAVE to do things. It's a very free belief. You aren't forced to do things, or to attend services..and such.. Religion is quite different,you have many rituals.
As I've mentioned before " God frees you, Religion can tie you up. "
| quote: | | I'm not saying that they are completely mistaken, but what I am saying is that they're insufficient and that some of them are meaningless. First they consider the existance of a god as a proven fact. Secondly they claim their god is the only and all mighty god. You simply can't take those claims seriously. Aside from that, they don't mention some socially unacceptable behaviours, such as fights, rape, slavery, etc. They're not something a modern law should be based on. |
Consider? No,it's beyond considering.
Yes, There is only one all mighty God.
Why can't you take them seriously?
It's pretty straight forward to me.
But,yes it should be in use.
Thou shalt not murder- That's a wonderful law to go by.
Thou shalt not commit adultry- That's another good one.
Thou shalt not steal- Yep, you guessed it.
I could go on..and on..and on..
All of it makes perfect sense,and should still be in use today.
| quote: | | That's cause I'm too lazy to search back through the thread to find them. |
Oh? well in that case. Here you go
1) What church do the 10 commandments represent?
2)If the 10 commandments do have a confliction with other religions, since when is it the place of the government to step in and deconflict it? |
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| WhoaNellie1487 |
| quote: | Originally posted by anuneventrade
Didn't you previously state that you had no religion? Doesn't this statement go against that? Christianity is a religion, and you just stated you are part of it.
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You aren't listening to a word I said. I didn't state anything other than " Yes I am a Christian " that doesn't mean I'm religious.
Let me put it this way. God-is God. Not religion. I listen to God,Not religion. All better now?
Now atheism...That's religion.
Oh and when you look up the work Denomination you find "a religious organization uniting local congregations in a single body"
Remeber,I'm NON denominational.
| quote: | | Once again, another thing religious people do. You could actually call it a ritual, on that note, because it is something done every Sunday. |
It is only a ritual if you are doing because you"are expected to", it is not a ritual if you are doing it because you enjoy worshiping God. One is done becuase you think you have to do something because of a guilt feeling, the other is a relationship based event. "Religion" is what man makes up that he needs to do so that he feels right with God, a Christian relationship with God is something that a Christian truly desires, not to simply carry out the motions of a hollow belief.
| quote: | | Claiming "I am a Christian", followed by "I attend church every week", would make you religious, because you follow it. |
I haven't been able to make it to church, in a VERY long time. Mind you. But, I'm not religious because I go to church. If that were the case, Then it would be like saying " going to a garage would make you a car " or " going to McDonalds would make you a hamburger "
| quote: | | Once again, the use of "we" would say that you are part of a religious organization. |
we [ wee ]
1. refers to speaker and others: refers to the speaker or writer and at least one other person ( first person plural personal pronoun, used as the subject of a verb )
We are going on vacation.
We grown-ups should protect our children’s rights.
We all want our children to have a better future.
2. refers to people in general: refers to all people or to people in general
We are getting closer to the election.
3. used instead of “I”: used by a writer or speaker to include the listener or speaker in what is being said, used especially to talk about how a book or talk is organized
We will now consider the causes of World War I.
4. used instead of “you”: used sarcastically or condescendingly by a speaker
How are we today? Are we getting better?
Gee, I don't see anything about being a part of a "religious organization"
| quote: | | No, you don't have every right. In case you didn't read correctly, the first ammendment mentions that the law will not favor any religion. In placing the ten commandments in front of the courthouse, you are placing a particular religion in front of it. There are many, many religions that don't follow the bible or it's commandments, and are extreemly offended by this, and I see why. Clearly, you do not. |
The 10 commandments ARE NOT a part of religion.. And you don't have to bring up the ammendments like I'm stupid. I studied government, all last year. I know what the ammendments state.
And further more, My question yet again. If it is conflicting with another religion, Where is it the governments place to deconflict it?
Since you are always whining about church and state being seperated.
And what church are the 10 commandments supporting? What are they representing?
Oh and this..
Religion in America
Oct. 14: Fully 92 percent of Americans say they believe in God, 85 percent in heaven and 82 percent in miracles
| quote: |
This right here is a prime example of trying to force your beliefs upon others. So Digi doesn't believe in God. Who are you to comment on this? On that note, who is he to comment on your beliefs? Beliefs are what they are. Beliefs. You cannot force someone to see things the way you do. You can educate them in your ways, however, the path they choose is the one they choose. |
I'm not forcing anything.I'm standing up for my rights-I have that right.
Who is "digi" to judge me? Or tell me,and my country we can't have the 10 commandments in the courthouse? Beliefs, they are important to a lot of people. Keep that in mind. I'm not forcing someone to see things the way I do, but I'm sure as heck not going to let them tell me what to do. Yes, That's right. All my job is to do is plant the seed and let it go from there. But, I'm not going to be a doormat either, also remeber that.
| quote: | You won't let them sit there and lie? Sounds like harassing what they believe in, now doesn't it?
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And they aren't harassing what I believe in?
| quote: | | Going to church every week can be considered a ritual. Reading the bible once a year can be considered a ritual. Fasting, is a ritual. |
First off,Read the above^
It is only a ritual, IF you do it because you think that is what opens the doors to Heaven for you, not if you do it because you believe it is the right thing to do. A ritual done out of a hollow desire to go through the motions is meaningless, but a rite or ritual done out of respect for God has absolutely no negative conotation. Who is this bozo that thinks he can read your mind and know what is the difference in your mind?
| quote: | | Goodness, must everything be explained to you as well? It's not about what CHURCH the 10 commandments support, it's about the RELIGION. Are you blind, or really just that ignorant? |
Nope, I understand,just fine. The 10 commandments DO NOT support a religion. I'm not blind. ^_^ I see just fine, infact..Take this to mind... a good mind,is like a parachute..It only works when it's open.Remeber that,It will help you in the future.
I'm not ignorant,No more than you are really.
| quote: | | One of America's good qualities is the fact that it's culture is so enriched and enhanced by the fact that there are people from all over the world, and with many different beliefs. Another fantastic thing is that there is no dominant religion, and there is no basis about religion in the law. |
Yes, That's right. You have the freedom here in the USA of what you want to believe.
| quote: | | To place the 10 commandments in front of a courthouse is placing a favor of a certian religion. Not every religion and culture believes in the 10 commandments. To place them there, would be to go against what is good in this country. |
This country was founded by the Christians..and it is a part of our history.. To say it's no longer a part of our history is taking the country away from it's founders.
That's not true. Just read them,They are our moral laws. It's not of a certain religion. And have you noticed,It's only the atheists having a problem with this? First you wanna screw with our pledge, then mess up our money.Now this? When are you all going to quit? When the country falls apart?
| quote: | As I stated before, to place the AMMENDMENTS would be a more practical and agreeable decision.
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Read this,my friend.
The Capital Building in D.C. has a statue of Moses and the 10 Commandments, because they are throught to be the basis of all law.
| quote: | | By saying God is our heavenly father, whether we choose to see it or not, you kind of are. |
God is our heavenly father, if you want to accept it or not.You're choice. Just don't go around telling myself,and other Christians he isn't.
| quote: | | RIGHTS? RIGHTS??? What rights do you speak of? The first ammendment clearly claims that the government WILL NOT FAVOR A RELIGION. You have no reason to claim that the 10 commandments outside of a courtroom is your right. |
Hmm,Well we have a whole load here. Each and every one,I am thankful for.
The first ammendment states many things.
It says it won't "Established" and official state religion. But it goes on further to say... That it is prohibited to interfere with the free practice of religion.
The supreme court recongnizes atheism as a religion and by interfering with the free practice of religion they are favoring a religion in itself.. Secularism is a form of religion, humanism is a form of religion.
| quote: | And I agree with Digi on this case. It's always about the christians. What about the Jewish religion? Do their views count? Hindu's? Buddhists? Where are their religious testaments in front of a courtroom? Of course, they aren't there.
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Who do you bother most? Christians? Are you trying to prohibit the buddhists, hindu's and muslims their beliefs? No you are always dogging on the Christians.
To add-The basis of the first 10 Ammendments or the "Bill of Rights" was authored by James Madison. I believe he was also a minister. The Bill of Rights would be based upon his own faith.
and also, No need for name calling (such as the name ignorant) when you can't answer me in a respectable manner. |
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| WhoaNellie1487 |
| quote: | Originally posted by devonian rabbit
Actually, you will find that the full text of the Ten Commandments does make reference to slavery. The 10th Commandment states:
“You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male or female slave, or his ox or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's.”
See, God doesn't have a problem with the institution of slavery... He just doesn't want you to covet your neighbor's slaves. The Bible condones slavery throughout. Many of our founders did too. Maybe that is the biblical foundation that I keep hearing our country was founded upon.. because its pretty obvious that representative democracy, separation of powers, freedom of religion, etc.. weren't derived from the Bible.
richard |
If the bible condones slavery, then why were Christians always in the fore front of any sufferage movement? Womens rights,civil rights... etc |
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| WhoaNellie1487 |
:Ladies and Gentlemen, Feast your eyes on this.
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Even so, many outside the tradition still tend to reduce evangelicals, and particularly prominent leaders and televangelists, to a conveniently dismissible stereotype: Bible-thumping, intolerant know-nothings. But when researchers focus on ordinary evangelicals, as University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill sociologist Christian Smith does in his book Christian America? What Evangelicals Really Want, they find "more diversity, complexity, and ambivalence than conventional wisdom would lead us to expect." Take Laura Camp, a 26-year-old aspiring opera singer in Cherry Hill, N.J. Strongly opposed to abortion and gay marriage, Camp doesn't think the Gospel should be twisted to suit contemporary mores. Still, says the evangelical, who recently moved from a United Methodist to a Baptist church: "It's not my job to condemn--the Holy Spirit will take care of that. My job is to have a growing relationship with God."
U.S. NEWS |
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| devonian rabbit |
| quote: | Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487
Consider? No,it's beyond considering.
Yes, There is only one all mighty God. |
And it is the United States government's place to say that there is only one God?
| quote: | Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487
Why can't you take them seriously? |
Because the majority of the commandments are totally irrelevant; especially in light of the Constitution (you know, that document that is the actual foundation of our government).
| quote: | Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487
It's pretty straight forward to me.
But,yes it should be in use. |
Specifically, how should they "be in use"? Also, please tell me which version should be used by the government? Catholic, Protestant or Hebrew?
| quote: | Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487
Thou shalt not murder- That's a wonderful law to go by. |
Nearly every civilization in history has had a law against murder. Laws against murder (and theft) pre-date Moses by a long shot. Nothing novel there. The novelty of the 10 Commandments lies in the innovation of monotheism.
| quote: | Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487
Thou shalt not commit adultry- That's another good one. |
Its not illegal though. Should it be illegal? Is that what you are arguing? Should all Biblical sins be illegal?
| quote: | Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487
Thou shalt not steal- Yep, you guessed it. |
see above (thou shalt not murder)
| quote: | Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487
I could go on..and on..and on..
All of it makes perfect sense,and should still be in use today. |
Please do continue with the rest of them.. Should keeping the Sabbath holy be US law? Should people be required to refrain from working/travelling/etc.. on the day that your religion designates as the Sabbath? Should it be illegal for me to covet my neighbor's possessions? What about blasphemy? Idolatry?
| quote: | Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487
1) What church do the 10 commandments represent? |
What sect of Islam do the Five Pillars of Islam represent? By your reasoning, since a variety of different Islamic sects promote the FPoI, putting a monument to the FPoI in an Alabama courthouse rotunda should be allowed.
| quote: | Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487
[b]2)If the 10 commandments do have a confliction with other religions, since when is it the place of the government to step in and deconflict it? |
See.. now you're thinking!! It is not the place of the government to deconflict the 10C's! The government is supposed to have nothing to do with them.
richard |
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| WhoaNellie1487 |
| quote: |
See.. now you're thinking!! It is not the place of the government to deconflict the 10C's! The government is supposed to have nothing to do with them. |
lol My friend,I've been thinking the whole time..Where have you been,mars?
The 10 commandments are not of a religion, They are our moral laws. Simple as that. I can't argue this one right now, To sick to see straight.. But I will be back tomorrow. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by devonian rabbit
The context of the Supreme Court's depictions of Moses and the Ten Commandments is quite different than Moore's monument. |
Ok how do you distinguish it yourself, and how then would you go by distinguishing this point in law, an entire matter all together.
| quote: |
Have you noticed that the tablets Moses is holding in this depiction on the East Pediment, are blank? That is because "God" is not the focus of the sculpture... Historical lawgivers from the east are the focus. The overall focus of the architectural decoration at the Supreme Court is Law. Not "God's Law". |
Maybe the reason that Moses is holding blank tablets is that it repersent the tablets before God wrote them, hinting that the Supreme Court has the final say over the law. Or perhaps the sculpture refused to do it because it was too hard and would break the statue, maybe he wasn't getting his fair pay and refused to put a depicition on the tablets as a way to get back at the man. Or perhaps the artist simply could not devise away to print all 10 commandments in length on thos small tablets, nor could he devise a way of repersenting it otherwise. These are all options as far as I know which would be much more sensible then the reason you gave.
Afterall if it point you hold that "God" is not the focus of the scuplture because their is no depicition on the tablet, then howcome the south frieze has a depicition on the tablet from then 10 commandments - God's law??
In the picture below, the south frieze
Moses is carrying a tablet on it is an inscription in hebrew that reads "thou shall not murder/kill" (he's #3 look at the video link above I posted it is a bit better zoom).
| quote: |
I don't know about this particular engraving, but I know on the East Frieze, the roman numerals I-X are displayed, and the sculptor, Adolph Weinman, claimed they symbolize the Bill of Rights. |
This is different, it is an engraving on the doors into the courtroom, and in the roman numerals are incased in tablets so it is with little doubt that their depecition was meant to be the 10 commandments.
| quote: |
Once again... context is the key difference. Moses is displayed in a historical context, alongside historical lawgivers in chronological order. |
Again though, how could you legally define context? Because their were other secular lawgivers, its ok to depecit the 10 commandments, but if there are no other secular lawgivers its not??
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All of those depictions are quite different than Moore's monument, which was placed with the explicit, and publicly stated purpose of claiming that the government is under the rule of the Judeo-Christian god. |
Really where did it say that it was explicitly placed their for that reason? Did it come with a plaque or something. I never got to here the whole side of it... What other statues are present in the courtroom, what other works of art grace it?
I don't know, so I won't comment on it, but do you?
also
| quote: |
See, God doesn't have a problem with the institution of slavery... He just doesn't want you to covet your neighbor's slaves. The Bible condones slavery throughout. Many of our founders did too. Maybe that is the biblical foundation that I keep hearing our country was founded upon.. because its pretty obvious that representative democracy, separation of powers, freedom of religion, etc.. weren't derived from the Bible. |
This is complete blasmphemy!:D
First repersentative democracy aside (as it can be argued it was practiced in Rome), seperations of powers, and freeomd of religion are completely and uniquely derived from the bible! So again is the freedome of man!!! Christianity is not unique in that it accepts slaves, every relgion has, it is unique however in have causing a movment that has read and interperted the scriptutres to achieve some natrual laws. These natural laws originate from the interperation of the scriptures according to Luther, Calvin, Hobbes and Locke <- these are the guys who made natrual law, and they did it in the confines of christanity. These natural laws provided both for the development and understanding of the abolishment movment for slavery and the sperations of powers (as they searched for the divine rule of government on earth). The freedom of religion is completely a christian ideal and is enumerated by these early natural lawyers.
So to say that the bible did not bring about these thing is both arrogant and completely ignorant. You might have a point in arguing that the bible can be interpurted in any which way, as natural lawyers derived different conclusions from the same source. But the origins of the abolishment movement, freedom of religion, and seperation of powers is completely traceable back to these very natrual lawyers who came up with their laws from their interperations of the bible. |
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