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At least 186 killed in Madrid bombings. (pg. 4)
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| St_Andrew |
well, i can also say that i honestly don't know _exactly_ why al quaida is doing what they are doing.. they are obiously fighting for something they strongly believe in, much like the western world fight for what we belive in - a free world and democracy. it's not like i have a solution to the problem but i don't think invading coutry after country will do it. of course afganistan was probably the right decission, and iraq could have been if you believed in all the propaganda and such before the war. BUT you can never control the whole world, there will always be places for this if you don't fight the real problems (like povertry, lack of free speech, too much religion etc).
to all you "war is the only solution people":
do you honestly think that you can bomb al quaida to an end?
i still miss an successful example of no diplomacy - whatsoever - solution to a terrorist conflict, please give me one... |
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| NeoPhono |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
to all you "war is the only solution people":
do you honestly think that you can bomb al quaida to an end?
i still miss an successful example of no diplomacy - whatsoever - solution to a terrorist conflict, please give me one... |
First, I'm not a "war is the only solution" type of person. However, when there is no hope of diplomacy, I'm not going to kid myself. There is no way to meet the demands of Al Qaeda, much less get "them" in a room to even talk about it.
Secondly, can you give me examples of where a terrorist organization of this magnitude has ever been appeased by diplomacy? I can think of individual groups, or events being averted, but never an entire movement stopped. It may buy small intervals of peace, only to flare up again in violence (it does not solve the root problem, only elongates tension). I can give you a whole list where diplomacy didn't work. Northern Ireland, Libya, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Palestine, Haiti, Iraq, etc.
Diplomacy has a place, as I said, when the conditions are right. You cannot force those conditions into place, much the same way you cannot force a resolution into place. |
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| UnBracKo |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
Heh, I wouldn't like to be in Aznar's seat now. He lead a war against the will of more than 85% of his people, and the only thing he succeeded in was bringing the wrath of muslim fundamentalists upon Spain. I'd say things will be pretty bad for him on the next elections. |
The elections are on Sunday and he is not a candidate. He has governed in total 8 years and he doesn't want another reelection so he told a few months ago he will not propose his candidatury in the next elections.
And for me this attack, if is Al-Qaeda the responsible, could be a good justification for have more collaborations with States against the terrorism and for jusify the support to Irak's war. Also he will have a big part of the society against him as you said in your post, I'm sure. I dunno many things will change after these new terrorist attacks. |
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| Izzy |
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."
- Thomas Jefferson
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid."
- Dwight Eisenhower
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
- Edmund Burke
my condolences to all the people of spain :( |
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| Flotser |
| quote: | Originally posted by Izzy
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
- Edmund Burke
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nice ! |
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| Yoepus |
di·plo·ma·cy
n.
The art or practice of conducting international relations, as in negotiating alliances, treaties, and agreements.
Tact and skill in dealing with people. See Synonyms at tact.
How can you be diplomatic with a terrorist group? They are no nation, they have no embassies, they obey no institutions. Diplomacy is the conduct of negotiation between states, not groups.
If the hint that terrorist don't fall into the realm of diplomacy wasn't enough of a hint not to use diplomacy to solve their problems, something should be deeply troublying you.
Solutions for Europe:
-Support the US in its war on terrorism, or at least remain silent, not like France, even if you disagree with it. Stop arguing about the necessities of fighting a brutal war such as Guantanumo Bay.
-Provide economic assistance to Iraq to build a liberal democracy and champion the crusade of liberalisim throughout the middle east.
-Create your own 'patriot acts' and beef up your security.
-Threaten the destruction of terrorist-supporting regiems such as Iran, Syria, and Saudia Arabia.
- Start condeming terrorism in all its forms strongly especially in the international forums you dominate.
- Open charities and media stations to shift the Arab mind.
- Build up your own military and intelligence services
... more and more, you guys got a long list, the above is just a few seconds worth of thoughts on the topic, what are you waiting for? |
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| Xavier |
| this is really ed...two different suspects, I hope Spain can find out which one of the two did it. |
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| Q5echo |
| Man, some of you guys sound like a certain president from Texas I know from about thirty months ago. I like it. A small part of me hopes that offends some of you here;) So how DO you stop this rabid dog we call Islamic extremism. We all know islam respects strength, moral clarity and fortitude and overwelming strength and little else. So how do you show them we are not going to stand for this. How do you show them your strength and moral character without resorting to violence and at the same time keeping your own dignity. |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
-Support the US in its war on terrorism, or at least remain silent, not like France, even if you disagree with it. Stop arguing about the necessities of fighting a brutal war such as Guantanumo Bay.
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Agreed.
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
-Provide economic assistance to Iraq to build a liberal democracy and champion the crusade of liberalisim throughout the middle east.
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Agreed - aren't we doing this already?
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
-Create your own 'patriot acts' and beef up your security.
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We have "beefed" up our security a notch, but I think that most of us (me at least) would protest a patriot act.
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
-Threaten the destruction of terrorist-supporting regiems such as Iran, Syria, and Saudia Arabia.
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What good would that do? How did Bush's "axis of evil"-speech help him control events in North Korea and Iran?
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
- Start condeming terrorism in all its forms strongly especially in the international forums you dominate.
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I hope we already are.
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
- Open charities and media stations to shift the Arab mind.
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I believe we are currently focusing our attention on helping eliminate poverty and illiteracy in the most poor countries of the world (=Al Qaeda's next recruiting ground). I prefer this approach to propaganda and false charity.
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
- Build up your own military and intelligence services
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The need for intelligence is great, yes, and I don't think we are lacking in this respect. But are there a need for more military? Didn't we all agree on Al-Qaeda not being a attackable target?
St Andrew: Nice posts. |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
to all you "war is the only solution people":
do you honestly think that you can bomb al quaida to an end?
i still miss an successful example of no diplomacy - whatsoever - solution to a terrorist conflict, please give me one... |
The Jewish revolts against Rome in 66AD and 122AD?
Heh in all serious however, there is simply no one to initiate diplomacy with with respects to this conflict. Furthermore, I would pose the argument that violence does not necessarily beget violence in this specific situation. One could make the claim that the number of cases of attacks could potentially increase, but with respect to the combined effectiveness and sophistication of the attacks, I would make the claim that they would actually decrease over the cycle of violence. Why? Well, simply put, there is no concrete cause to rally against that would engender anything but individual sympathy for the terrorist cause. There is no homeland to protect, there is no great invader to repel (hopefully once the transfer is complete this will become self-evident), there is no grave injustice that is the root of the global Al-Qaeda cause. They are campaigning on a systematic offensive to attain idealogical goals. And while this may draw from the ranks of likeminded indivduals, it is relatively poor attraction for the general masses.
So in effect, while the cylce of violence may continue, over time, the random, indiscriminate attacks (Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Iraq, whoever) will only strengthen global resolve and cooperation against these groups. Furthermore, the mere nature of the attacks alone unite the majority against the Al-Qaeda cause since their attacks directly affect the very group they are attempting to recruit from. Lastly as each attack against indiscriminate innocents unites global resolve, it also serves to remove the capability of Al-Qaeda type groups the ability to operate freely in ANY country that desires some kind of good relations with the rest of the world.
Therefore while violence may beget violence in the short term, it is not a fight Al-Qaeda can win in the long run. It would be erroneous to try and portray it as being similar to the Palestinian/Israeli cycle of violence. Imagine Palestinian terrorists who are completely isolated from the rest of the world, even from the PLO, and Israel possessed the greatest lattitude in dealing with them.
The ONLY possible way Al-Qaeda can successfully survive is IF it generates a true following of middle easterners who would be willing to sanction violence in an effort ot overthrow existing governments in order to acheive fundementalist states.
Or the west does something extremely stupid ... |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | [b]Originally posted by occrider [/b
The ONLY possible way Al-Qaeda can successfully survive is IF it generates a true following of middle easterners who would be willing to sanction violence in an effort ot overthrow existing governments in order to acheive fundementalist states. |
Trying not to come off as a smartass because i agree with everything in your post, but was this an ironic statement? It seems to the rest of the non muslim world that al-queda does have a true following of not just middle easterners but a global pool of fresh hearts and minds to pull from. All it takes is a few to affect many in more ways one.
i in hate'm |
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| sifntj0r |
i've been thinking about the terrorist problem (mainly suicide bombers) and how to solve. i came to the same conclusion that the only way is to kill them. it's time to level the playing field. those poor folk in madrid just copped a hammering.
basically there needs to be a policy whereby terrorists or suspected terrorists are monitored and tracked. once reasonable evidence has been gathered in regards to that persons belief, intention or membership to certain groups, then a military unit of some kind is sent in to execute them. no judge, no jury, no innocent until proven guilty, no wait for the first offence. if they are monitored and proven to have relations with known terrorists then its kill time.
sorry, it costs too many human lives for a 'first offence'.
i'm pretty sure after some period of time people would second guess joining and being affiliated with certain groups, in fact the very act of being affiliated with such groups would be outlawed (punishment: death). it's time to stop being ing pussies and playing by their rules, they arent humans and they dont in deserve no justice, except the sweet justice only a 5.56mm round can deliver.
it would work ladies, even if you'd have to turn a blind eye because you have a weak stomach for that certain thing. there is no other alternative. its like a sport or a game, we have to control the tempo, we have to control the rules, we have to methodically kill the known terrorists until there are none left, and then work on the 'suspects'.
we must stop them before they can even begin to plan one of their 'missions'.
who would be in control of such a thing? i dunno, maybe the UN? perhaps if it had a LEADER of some sort, kofi annan just doesnt fill me with hope for the human race guys.
said it once and i'll say it again, if it wasnt for these religious s and their bull conflicts, we'd already have moon bases and space exploration would be going along much nicer. |
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