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At least 186 killed in Madrid bombings. (pg. 7)
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| Palestinian |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
I don't want to get into another Israel/Palestine debate, as they're already too prevalent on this forum, and I don't think we should be comparing Spain to the Middle-East, as there is certainly little if any room for comparison...
But accusing Jews of "Stealing food and water everyday" implies that Jews just walk into Palestinian homes and take food off their tables and drain their water wells at will. I won't get into the merits of whose land is whose, but one thing that is fact is that when the Jews went to Israel it was not much more than the sandy wasteland that is a lot of the middle-east. They brought irrigation technology and developed the land, making it more fertile. If nothing else the Jews made it more productive for all. If anything, water and food are more abundant because of the Jews. I'm sure this doesn't sit well with you, but right/wrong/occupational issues aside, it is true. |
Let me throw the facts in your face. When Israel plows up farms, orchards, and olive trees, they are destroying food and starving people. Many farms were plowed up so the wall can be built.
Facts about water:
75% of the Occupied West Bank & Gaza Strip renewable water resources are used by Israel.
Three million Palestinians are allowed to use 250 million cubic meters per annum (83 cubic meters for each Palestinian per year) while six million Israelis enjoy the use of 2.0 billion cubic meters (333 cubic meter for each Israeli per year), which means that one Israeli consumes as much water as do four Palestinians. Each Israeli settler is allocated 1,450 cubic meters of water per year.
The World Health Organization's recognized minimum of domestic water consumption is 100 liters per capita per day. The current domestic water supply for Palestinians is only 57-76 liters per capita per day. Many towns and villages are suffering from a severe water shortage as a result of closing the Palestinian territories.
Many villages in the Jenin Governate are suffering from serious water shortage due to the Israeli siege. The Municipality is not able to import needed spare parts for the well pump. Water Tankers cannot reach the villages due to the closure.
Continuous Israeli settlers' attacks on Palestinian water tankers prevent Palestinian Water Tankers from reaching their water supply source-taps--- which have been cut off by local Isreali settlers who solely own and control the flow of water in the region . Some of the Palestinian villages such as Dier Ibzi and Qabalan are particularily suffering from the cut off of the water supply by the settlers who are protected by the Israeli soldiers. Also, Israeli settlers from Humesh settlement cut off water pipes, which served seven surrounding villages. Many watertankers are obliged to return empty due to the high demand on exhausted source-taps in areas under Palestinian control.
As a result of the cut-offs, the price of tanked water increased from 2.5 $ per cubic meter to 7.5 $ per cubic meter. As a result of the drastic rise in the price of water, the amount of income spent per family on water has increased by 12%, making it more difficult for families to meet their basic domestic and vital needs.
There have been well pumps shut off because of fuel scarcity.
Israeli soldiers have targeted water roof tanks of Palestinian houses near Israeli checkpoints.
Israeli helicopters bombarded the water well in Mawasi area in Gaza.
Under the conditions incurred by the siege, civilians in the occupied territories are suffering from lack of access to necessary resources, necessary for even the maintenance of their daily needs and basic health. We have reached a state of emergency in the water sector in the Occupied Territories. We must call for an immediate end to the siege upon the water sector. |
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| TranceGiant |
Thread now officially hijacked.
In the voice of Israeli-Palestinian Topics:
You can run but you can't hide! :whip: |
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| Palestinian |
Arabs don't want America's version of liberal democracy, you cannot force it on the Arabs. This is becoming clearly a war on Islam so that liberal democracy can be shoved down our throats so American companies can make more profit.
The only way to solve the problem is to first solve Israeli/Palestinian problem.
Second STOP SUPPORTING AND FUNDING NASTY DICTATORS AND MONARCHS IN THE MIDDLE EAST! E.G. SAUDI ARABIA
That's it. Then grab your popcorn and watch the Arabs as they revolt against their dictators and impose democracy. |
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| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Palestinian
Arabs don't want America's version of liberal democracy, you cannot force it on the Arabs. This is becoming clearly a war on Islam so that liberal democracy can be shoved down our throats so American companies can make more profit.
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what the hell? a war agianst islam? No, a war agianst the extremest islamo-facist philosophy. One of the tennants of liberalism is the freedom to worship any god and believe any religion. this however is not allowed in radical islamic countries, freedom of religion is not exsistant. so this isnt a war agianst islam becuase we are fighting for people to believe in it, and any other religion as well.
and this war being about american comanpies making more profit? ever thought about how the arab countries might prosper under a free economy? Instead of a dictator or monarch prospering over their peoples misery we are fighting for the arab private business sector that is currently shackled.
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The only way to solve the problem is to first solve Israeli/Palestinian problem.
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honestly i dont find it that important. its a side issue at best.
| quote: |
Second STOP SUPPORTING AND FUNDING NASTY DICTATORS AND MONARCHS IN THE MIDDLE EAST! E.G. SAUDI ARABIA
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ok if america were to stop funding 'nasty' monarchs like in saudi arabia then two options will occur
*a more liberal and democratic government will take its place
*a more 'nastier' islamo fasict takes power
since we all know the current US support governments in egypt, saudia, and jordan are all keeping their terrorists at bay a sudden withdrawl of this support and all of a sudden more extreme dictators come in. at least this way we can nudge, impose and create a gradual democratization process.
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That's it. Then grab your popcorn and watch the Arabs as they revolt against their dictators and impose democracy. |
i'm done with my popcorn |
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| Alccode |
Izzy, Yoepus, and others who say that you cannot negotiate with a non-nation like Al-Qaeda, what is your suggestion? Retaliatory force / military aggression? But how can you attack a non-entity like Al-Qaeda? Badda-bing. This suffers the same problem as diplomacy. You can't just invade arbitrary countries. Even if you did, the terrorist networks are, by definition, not tied to any particular nation and will move. So where do you stop? What happens when you get to your own doorstep?
sifntj0r, what you are suggesting is extremely dangerous and I'm glad that such a preposterous idea would never actually materialize in any half-sane civilized nation. You cannot simply kill someone out of hand, even if you have "evidence." We all know that things such as death penalties themselves have error rates ("false positives," shall we say).
"Well, you have to make a tradeoff ... a few lives taken by mistake versus hundreds or thousands prevented!" <- This is even more dangerous thinking. Where do you draw the line? How would you feel if you were falsely accused and slain? "Oh well, statistical error got the better of me!" :D
No thanks, none of these solutions work. This, however makes much better sense:
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
So in effect, while the cylce of violence may continue, over time, the random, indiscriminate attacks (Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Iraq, whoever) will only strengthen global resolve and cooperation against these groups. Furthermore, the mere nature of the attacks alone unite the majority against the Al-Qaeda cause since their attacks directly affect the very group they are attempting to recruit from. Lastly as each attack against indiscriminate innocents unites global resolve, it also serves to remove the capability of Al-Qaeda type groups the ability to operate freely in ANY country that desires some kind of good relations with the rest of the world.
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(Why isn't there a thumbs-up smiley?)
Hehe:
| quote: |
Or the west does something extremely stupid ...
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Like invade a certain large middle eastern country on shady pretenses? ;) Like you yourself have said, Occ, this has only increased violence and hatred against the west!
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I am also of the mindset that Al-Qaeda will bring their own downfall. People don't just naturally tend to adopt insane fundamentalist and terrorist thinking. It requires a certain environment and brainwashing to emerge.
One of the only places for hope, IMHO, is to remove the causes for this kind of militantism (as others have said here). There is no way that merely a religion can cause this kind of widespread behaviour. Religion, or rather fundamentalism in this case, serves as a label over all of the woes that these people are suffering (no, they're not doing this because they are bored).
What do you think is a better recruitment vehicle? Explaining how your living conditions are horrible for whatever reason (the west?) etc., or proclaiming war on Satan and setting the conquering of the world as your goal?
More than anything, ignorance is what fuels this kind of crap. Again, I think it would be far, far, better to transfer spending of billions upon untold billions of dollars of military money (talking about the world here, though America takes the cake on this one) and use it for more constructive social uses. Or, as some more aggressively-minded people here would say, for "pacifist" purposes.
Violence is never a solution for violence. Not now, not before, not ever. It's up to every individual to see this for themselves. If you cannot, then look at the cold hard facts of history and you'll find it there. |
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| Alccode |
My apologies to several people here with intelligent posts that I simply haven't had the time to respond to at the moment, whether in agreement or disagreement.
I'd like to say one last thing regarding the Madrid bombings. I had very similar feelings to 9/11, though maybe not as pronounced.
Just looking at the photos of bodybags and blood-soaked innocent people, who were simply living out their normal lives like all of us, elicited a mix of horror, sadness, immense grief, and rage.
In case some may have gotten the wrong idea from my previous post, I am vehemently against terrorism and am a firm supporter of its eradication. But I do not agree that invading entire countries will do the trick, or any other such drastic measures, including sacrificing civil liberties for a mostly false sense of security.
On a final note, I must admit that these feelings reminded me of the fact that my post-9/11 outrage had been watered down, mainly because of suspicious American activity. But what we all need to keep in mind is that people WERE killed, innocent people, including just now in Madrid. Let's not allow political debates about merits or faults of particular countries or governments get in the way of that fact. (But the debates should continue, of course!) |
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| smokeape |
F*ck. Folks getting blowed up everywhere these days. Well, the US has some SF to hunt down and kill the bastards. Blowing up people really doesn't foster any political change. The hard handed extremists need to learn the hard handed covert repercussions of the political right. So pissed off I don't want to further comment.
:whip:
[[[smoke]]] |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | | Izzy, Yoepus, and others who say that you cannot negotiate with a non-nation like Al-Qaeda, what is your suggestion? |
I've already given my suggestion. And not a lot of it is based on pure military force or action. Rather the threat of its use, and simply rallying around it.
Heres where me, Izzy, and other sound minded individuals you like to call 'hawks' look at it.
We've tried the approach you've described, pacifism/appeasement/diplomacy/UN support call it what you will, for the past 30,40 years in this region. It's been a live, let live as far as the middle east and the west can term their relationship. European/pacifism/appeasement has been the policy of the west towards the middle east for the past 30-40 years!
Well it hasn't worked. Its done quiet the opposite.
(In the past 15 years, the middle easterns have got fed up with this policy and decided to stop letting us live)
And you might be now apologizing for the history of such events, "but it wasn't pure diplomacy, it wasn't pure appeasement, it wasn't pure pacifism, if we actually try and be pure this time in our diplomacy, if we really try this time we will get it to work, all we need is a stop to the violence".
You can't apologize for it, a new diplomatic approach will not be any 'purer' today than an initiative 10 or 30 years ago. We've tried it. Just like people say... if we would have been tougher with sanctions, if we would have been more diplomatic, we could have gotten Iraq to change. Why? It didn't work for the past ten years, why would you expect it to work in the next five? The conditions wouldn't change, nothing mind changing would have happened..
And nothing did happen, nothing even seemed to look different, a diplomatic solution only looked a little feasible when the US threatened to use FORCE.
But let me return to the point I'm trying to make here its rather simple. For the history of the middle east the USA has tried the European approach to handling Middle Eastern affairs, and admittedly it has been a great blunder. Its now time the USA tries its way now, and I suggest the rest of you the world around should join boat in this new attempt instead of wailing for your destroyed ideologies.
Admit it, your approach hasn't worked. Don't go continue throwing money at it, it won't help the problem, you need to look at the concept differently.
You guys are just like US congressmen when it comes to education. The USA has the one of the highest if not the highest funded eduation system in the world (I'm talking primary and secondary here). Yet the quality of this schools is disgraceful. What is the Congress's solution? Throw more money into the problem, they've been doing it for the past 20 years, more and more, and more and more money into education in attempts to make the US have a better education system. Did it work? No. Why? Because money's not the answer, their whole apporach to the problem is wrong. Yet some will deny this and complain we haven't given money "purely" enough, we need to spend more money, if we spend money better and more right this time....
:rolleyes: |
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| Palestinian |
| quote: | Originally posted by Izzy
what the hell? a war agianst islam? No, a war agianst the extremest islamo-facist philosophy. One of the tennants of liberalism is the freedom to worship any god and believe any religion. this however is not allowed in radical islamic countries, freedom of religion is not exsistant. so this isnt a war agianst islam becuase we are fighting for people to believe in it, and any other religion as well.
and this war being about american comanpies making more profit? ever thought about how the arab countries might prosper under a free economy? Instead of a dictator or monarch prospering over their peoples misery we are fighting for the arab private business sector that is currently shackled.
honestly i dont find it that important. its a side issue at best.
ok if america were to stop funding 'nasty' monarchs like in saudi arabia then two options will occur
*a more liberal and democratic government will take its place
*a more 'nastier' islamo fasict takes power
since we all know the current US support governments in egypt, saudia, and jordan are all keeping their terrorists at bay a sudden withdrawl of this support and all of a sudden more extreme dictators come in. at least this way we can nudge, impose and create a gradual democratization process.
i'm done with my popcorn |
Islam tells you how to run your state. This conflicts with capitalism which tells you another way of running your state. This is why there is conflict between the two. Muslims are often made to look bad in the media, many are also racially profiled and detained or deported.
Arabs want democracy but American companies taking taking over the country isn't freedom.
Saudia Arabia, Jordan, and Egypt suppress all demonstrations against their governments. You don't realize the extent to which the majority desires democracy but the governments are always too powerful due to American support because you don't live there. I don't blame you. The dictators are nasty as it is to their people. Anti-American sentiments would disolve from the majority of people if America stopped supporting the dictator oppressors. You don't realize this because you don't live there and again, I don't blame you.
Solving the Israeli/Palestinian problem is extremely crucial. The majority of Palestinians desire a democratic Palestine. If this is achieved:
1. Palestine becomes an example to the rest of the Arab world.
2. Arabs would be motivated to solve the next crucial problem i.e. dictatorships.
You'll need another bag of popcorn. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by Palestinian
Solving the Israeli/Palestinian problem is extremely crucial. The majority of Palestinians desire a democratic Palestine. If this is achieved:
1. Palestine becomes an example to the rest of the Arab world.
2. Arabs would be motivated to solve the next crucial problem i.e. dictatorships.
You'll need another bag of popcorn. |
This is very true. But if the Palestinian problem is solved through islamo-fascisim (read terrorist methods) this will be the greatest detrement to the Arabs since the Turkish conquests. It will prove that islamo-facisim works and can defeat the western democratic philosophies. Such an outcome will only strengthen and deepen the root of the problem.
If the Palestinians developed a liberal democratic state that then could achieve peace with Israel, this would be the proudest success for both the people of the middle east and the west in their shared histories.
But I haven't even started popping the popcorn. I wouldn't recommend any of you do either;) |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Alccode
(Why isn't there a thumbs-up smiley?)
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| trewqy |
Hey dont insult religions here.
Look, we dont make fun of god.We dont make fun of Jesus.We dont make fun of your Wailing wall.We dont make absolutely creepy south park episodes where all of the world's religion main figures are being made fun of.
Fair enough. You dont believe in god.Fair enough, you dont believe in the black book or the Koran.Fair enough you think Jesus is a myth.I dont give a .But lets not start criticising each other's beliefs just because what YOU believe is right.
Lets all not be some self-righteous prick here.
What we believe in is our choice.We follow by its rules and aint nobody is gonna change it because of some 3rd person perspective.Some of you have very shallow knowledge about some religions and suddenly you're talking like you're some kind of harvard professor whose been studying about that specific subject for 20 years. |
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