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No Smoking in bars, lounges, nighclubs, casinos/racetracks June 1st 2004!!!!! (pg. 3)
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by The Highroller
i hope all you non smokers know what you're praising. this is going to absolutely CRIPPLE the afterhours club scene.
take a look around next time you go to guv or system to see the ratio smokers to non smokers. the smokers GREATLY outnumber the non smokers
and when you're flying on 4 pills all through the night, it's kind of impossible to go for 8+ hours without a smoke.
even when i was a non smoker i'd still be trashing this law because it's really going to up the after hours scene. the population of clubs is going drop significantly if they enforce this.
what's next? banning alcohol? give me a ing break. |
Gimme a break Greenhorn, these points have all been made and refuted before. You sound like Smitty. |
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| k0nk |
| quote: | even when i was a non smoker i'd still be trashing this law because it's really going to up the after hours scene. the population of clubs is going drop significantly if they enforce this.
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Right, because you know, if these people can't smoke for a few hours, they'll decide never to go to the bar, or to afterhour parties... roight.
:crazy: |
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| Skipper |
| quote: | Originally posted by The Highroller
i hope all you non smokers know what you're praising. this is going to absolutely CRIPPLE the afterhours club scene.
take a look around next time you go to guv or system to see the ratio smokers to non smokers. the smokers GREATLY outnumber the non smokers
and when you're flying on 4 pills all through the night, it's kind of impossible to go for 8+ hours without a smoke.
even when i was a non smoker i'd still be trashing this law because it's really going to up the after hours scene. the population of clubs is going drop significantly if they enforce this.
what's next? banning alcohol? give me a ing break. |
If people are going to stop going out altogether because they can't smoke, then I don't particular think they're big into the scene anyways.
Graham do you think people will STOP going out because they can't smoke? like where are they going to go instead? do you think smokers are all going to be resigned to staying at home listening to a DJ tiesto CD and gettin high? Come on.
THEY'RE JUST GOING TO GET USED TO IT. Just like when they banned smoking in the WORKPLACE. |
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| dj_moonshine |
| quote: | Originally posted by The Highroller
do you guys honestly think that alllll those people who smoke in clubs are going to stop immediately on june 1st? i HIGHLY doubt it.
well i'll be at system for steve lawler on the first friday night of this new law (june 4th) with a pack of cigarettes, i'll see what they say to me. i would like to see system turn away most of their clientelle because they have cigarettes. |
man are you sure?? wat if the consequences is you have to pay a fine or somthing, wat will you do then? think think think........ |
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| Jayx1 |
In EVERY single jusridiction in North America where this has taken effect, nightclub business has decreased and has since never made it back to presmoking levels.
I dont know why people in Toronto think they are somehow different. This is going to devestate the already suffering clubscene in this city.
I wont even go into how disgusted i am at the nanny state our country is becoming... |
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| j_spot |
| I bet skybar will suddenly become THE place to go. |
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| Jayx1 |
| Until they ban smoking on patios which is what they are already pushing for. You see these ex smoking granny voters wont stop until tobacco prohibition. This is why we have to stop them ourselves. |
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| drewfactor |
| I think that banning smoking on patios is taking it too far. I mean, c'mon, that is ridiculous. It's outside! The next step is to make smoking illegal, and it may as well be illegal if there is no where to smoke but huddled away in your basement. |
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| j_spot |
calgary is ass backwards that way
Bars are the only place you can smoke(for the next 4 years, then you cant smoke in public @ All) but PATIOS..nope, cant smoke there...so you go BACK inside to have your smoke.
But, im all for a smoking ban. I shouldnt have to endanger my life while im out. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
In EVERY single jusridiction in North America where this has taken effect, nightclub business has decreased and has since never made it back to presmoking levels.
I dont know why people in Toronto think they are somehow different. This is going to devestate the already suffering clubscene in this city.
I wont even go into how disgusted i am at the nanny state our country is becoming... |
And your source for this is...?
I've heard an earful of rhetoric on this subject from smokers but never seen a single documented study or report. Please show us some concrete evidence of the claim you are making, preferably with something that actually shows causation (i.e. business wasn't already going to the dogs before the law was enacted).
Please and thank you.
As for banning smoking on patios, I agree that it's a stupid idea. But I've heard no reports to indicate that anyone is "pushing" for that. |
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| Jayx1 |
Taken from the "Fair Air Association of Canada" website
Health and Ventilation - The Facts
The issue of smoking bans, and the reasons given for supporting those bans, is often surrounded by myths and misinformation. It's time to set the record straight.
Fact: Our organization is not pro-smoking, we're pro-choice. We agree that smoking, like so much of what we do or consume, has health risks associated with it. Nonetheless, tobacco is a legal product and roughly a quarter of Canada's adult population chooses to use it.
Fact: Banning smoking in bars and pubs won't make people quit smoking, it will just encourage them to stay at home and smoke. The Brewers of Ontario's own numbers prove this to be true in Ontario. Where bans are in place, people stay home and socialize... in unventilated environments.
Fact: Proper ventilation better protects worker from environmental contaminants, including environmental tobacco smoke (ETS). The Workers Compensation Board of BC - the body responsible for looking out for the health and well-being of all working people in that healthiest of Canada's provinces - created and endorsed a ventilation standard, not a ban, to protect those who work in the hospitality industry. Ventilation protects mine workers a kilometer underground from lethal chemicals; surely it can work to clear the air of ETS in your local pub.
Fact: The constituent parts of ETS are everywhere and caused by many things other than smoking. These same constituents have been detected in 100% smoke free places like the food court at Toronto's Eaton Centre. Banning smoking in bars and pubs will not rid Ontario of ETS constituents.
Fact: According to the most recent study - published in the prestigious British Medical Journal - there are no statistically significant health risks associated with a life-time of exposure to ETS.
Fact: there is a 'win-win' solution to the public smoking debate; a solution that creates jobs, protects the livelihood of those who work in the hospitality industry and accommodates both those who wish to avoid tobacco smoke and those who choose to smoke. The solution is ventilation.
Myth #1
100% Smoking Bans are better for business and create a level playing field for the hospitality industry
Fact: Members of the hospitality industry know their business. It's what they do. If 100% bans made economic sense, they'd do it... and some do... on their own. If a great business opportunity was available in creating smoke-free venues, every anti-tobacco lobbyist would have started up their own establishment long ago.
Fact: Evidence of the negative economic consequences of a ban is overwhelming. FAAC research shows 76% of Ontario's licensed establishments believe a ban will have a negative impact on business. 46% believe it will result in layoffs. Brewers of Ontario numbers show that licensed beer sales - the backbone of pub and bar sales - fall off dramatically after a ban. In Ottawa, 60 bars and pubs out of 210 have closed since the smoking bylaw was implemented there. Politicians are saying they were flat out wrong in thinking the bars and pubs would rebound after a ban... they don't. In B.C., the impact of the 100% smoking bylaw in its short 80 day life included losses of $8 million to the hospitality industry and nearly 800 layoffs. Owners and managers of bars in New York say that business is off by as much as 40% and that they have been forced to lay off employees.
Fact: If a municipality is going to create a so-called level playing field, they need to level it on every front. Some bars have parking, some don't. Some pubs have better signs than others. Some have better locations. Some have better food or better selections of draught beer. It's ridiculous to think a municipality or Province would mandate parking allotment, signage, locations, menus and draught beer selection all for the sake of 'a level playing field'. That's not their job. But if creating a level playing field is what's driving your local representative, they need to go all the way.
Fact: there is a 'win-win' solution to the public smoking debate; a solution that creates jobs, protects the livelihood of those who work in Ontario's hospitality industry - the Province's largest employer - and accommodates both those who wish to avoid tobacco smoke and those who choose to smoke. The solution is ventilation. It is a solution used around the world including BC, Nova Scotia and Quebec and it can work effectively in your municipality.
Myth #2
The 2002 KPMG study on the effects of the smoke-free by-law on the hospitality industry suggests 100% smoking bans in bars and pubs won't hurt business
Fact: The study was inconclusive. Hard evidence clearly shows 100% smoking bans hurt bars and pubs and the people they employ.
The anti-tobacco lobby makes constant reference to a weak KPMG study done by the City of Ottawa in the wake of that municipality's misguided smoking ban as 'proof' that bans don't hurt business. Let's look at what the study really says:
"...it is very difficult to isolate any effect the smoke free by-law may have had on restaurant and bar sales. It appears bars and pubs have experienced a more difficult year than restaurants... we cannot rule out that other factors, including changing customer preferences and the smoke-free by-law may have impacted establishments in particular niches.
This vague conclusion is far from the 'hard evidence' claimed by the anti-tobacco lobby to justify a 100% smoking ban.
Fact: Independent sales figures from the Brewers of Ontario show a 6% decline in licensed beer sales (over $1 million a month) since the Ottawa by-law came in to effect. This is a fact. The Brewers have similar numbers for every single municipality that has gone smoke free. This is a fact. Given that beer sales are the ultimate barometer of how well the bar and pub industry are doing, it is clear that smoking bans hurt that part of the hospitality industry. A recent survey of Ontario's licensed establishment reveals that 76% believe a ban will hurt business. Almost half (46%) believe a ban will lead to lay-offs. These are facts from the front lines, from the people who know the business better than anyone. |
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| DigiNut |
Wow, that's pretty weak propaganda.
I don't want to waste my time on a lengthy rebuttal if no one's interested in hearing it, but if you'd like to hear why I think that study is total baloney (complete with my own sources and clear arguments, of course) then I'd be more than happy to. Just let me know. |
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