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Atheism (pg. 6)
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| Brownitus |
| quote: | Originally posted by Renegade
Well I'm not so sure there's any real point in digging up the horrors inflicted by Christianity in the past. |
Really? Wow, man. Did you totally miss the point of my post, or what? It is not the events themselves that I am holding today's generations of pseudo-Christians responsible for, nor is anyone-- it is the EFFECT of these events on today's society that I was getting to. The point of what are today known as Christmas and Thanksgiving were two examples of how today's Christians and, in the latter, people in general, flock to tradition's call and never QUESTION things. They merely accept what they have been taught by their parents; the quintessential generational brainwashing of children due to the parents' own ignorance.
When people celebrate Christmas, the POINT of my example was that they are in fact celebrating a PAGAN festival that was suddenly transformed into this holy day of the birth of the Christ. Hell, if the majority of Christians ever actually READ the bible, they would realize that it mentions Yoshua being born when (paraphrasing here) "men travelled town to town freely" and "the sheep were out and about." Yeah, in the cold and snow of winter men could have travelled town to town easily and sheep were chewin' on the grass? (That one actually goes to the fool who posted above stating there were no contradictions in the Bible. haha. Maybe you should READ it, eh? Might help, genius.)
| quote: | | Nowhere in the Bible does it suggest that black people are situated below white people in God's eyes (though it does condone slavery admittedly). The Pope who committed those attrocities would have already had these racist ideals within him by the time he saw it fit to justify his genocide with a greater - but ultimately unfounded - religious justification. |
Again, this point of yours is EASILY proven wrong by the inherently racist ideal of one of the greatest Christian "values:" WHITE VERSUS BLACK. Ever hear of the great "White Light" of the Lord? How about the ever-present horrid blackness\darkness of Satan? These things aren't annointments to human nature, they are virtues of Christianity since its beginnings. To dumb it down, it is FLAT OUT and simply known as White = good and Black = evil. Read the bible, it's in there. It's all over the world, and it is a source of not the racist motives of historic Christian war-mongers or Popes, but of one of the very basic and primary aspects of the religion itself.
| quote: | | If you trace back the history of any people, you will find - at some point - a dark past. But rebuking a people for attrocities committed many generations back makes absolutely no sense. It would make as much sense as condemning the German people of today for actions that Adolf Hitler committed barely half a century ago. |
Of course, all cultures have their stains throughout history. But I clarified this stance of yours above in my first paragraph of this response to your post. What if every German today openly tattooed themselves with swastikas and praised Hitler openly? Sure it wouldn't make any sense, but does Christians today celebrating a pagan tradition as the biggest "Christian" celebration of the year make any sense, either? Hell no-- and the information and knowledge to realize their gigantic mistake is out there, too. They just don't care, and continue to evolve and carry out the mistakes from the "dark past." This is the point I was making.
| quote: | | Why would God be against blacks when his son, Jesus, was almost certaintly a black, Arabic man - not the blond haired, blue eyed adonis we see in contemporary art? |
No . Any intelligent, well-read, well-researched person knows the truth of Jesus being Black. The Greeks even had statues of Imhotep, whom they worshipped in the form of a Black African.[/B][/QUOTE]
Just to ensure you don't get the wrong idea, all above is in the name of intelligent discussion. Text can take a varying appearance to individuals, so I'm just making sure you don't think I'm attempting to offend you in anyway :) |
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| Brownitus |
Oops, forgot to state my position on Atheism vs. Theism (to put it simply).
It's probably obvious that I don't believe in God, and I don't. I am, however, not an Atheist, but more an Agnostic-- one who doesn't believe in a God, but hopes there is one.
Some points I'd like to address:
1. Religion is flawed for a simple reason: it merely prepares man for the next life. I'm speaking of the major religions which constitute a following consisting of the larger percentage of the world's populace, mainly. Dumbed down: Your life is to be judged by God, and in the end you go to a Heaven or Hell. Hence, you merely live this life for the next. This is the unquestionable base philosophy which is the foundation for the major world religions. Which brings me to my next point;
2. If God is omnipotent and created the Earth and all life in His own image and God is entirely comprised of "Good," then I would be interested in some explanations on what is known as the Devil\Satan\Lucifer. How could this be created by the omnipotent one wholly of "Good." And no, don't give me that "an Angel cast out of heaven" Rosicrucian nonsense.
3. Think about God, and think about today's world. No one, no matter how isolated from modern society and no matter how many consecutive days they spend sheltered in their respective holy building\church\temple can deny the impact of this age upon them. If there is a God and if ever God had a message, it has been so distorted and lost over time that it can clearly never be redeemed again by man.
I'm merely testing the waters here, seeing if those of the faith can muster any solid responses that oppose these points.
Peace. |
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| Renegade |
Brownitus:
Yep, okay, I think we're approaching the same subject but from a different angle. I'm talking about Christianity as a whole: the ideals and whatnot behind the entire religion, whereas you're talking about the Christians (i.e. the people who follow the religion) specifically. The point is, I guess, is that what it says in the Bible and what people believe are two different things - hence denominations like Protestantism, Catholicism, Anglicanism, etc. all arising from the same basic texts and ideals - and I guess you're making a similar point yourself.
Now I agree entirely that too many Christians adopt their faith unquestioningly and blindly. The point you cited - that Christ was born in October (to our best estimates) yet his birth is celebrated in December - goes to underline this point. How many Christians realise this? Few I would imagine. And it is this blind faith - this unflinching literalsim - that makes me dislike most forms of organised religion.
Having said that, I'm still not sure I agree with your views on the racist undertones in the bible. The pope instigating the genocide you talk about, like I said before, was a racist first and foremost, and would have looked for any justification - regardless of how fragile - for his views within the pages of the Bible. Sure, the "white=good, black=evil" sentiments may have been grounded in a racist motivation, but it's far more likely that this moral dichotemy of black and white is grounded in much more simple and less sinester imagery.
Light, for many religions - not just Christianity - is seen as a pure, white and brilliant element. It is this purity that has led god to be painted as the domain of the sky and of the sun, draped in dazzling white cloth while Satan is relegated to the bowels of the underground, dark and chaotic. I would argue that it is the imagery that each of portraits evoke that has led to the light=good, dark=bad mentality that you talk about. Nothing more than aesthetic convenience. Again, I doubt that this sort of mentality is rooted in racist beliefs, as the people who wrote the Bible would have been black, Arabic people themselves. Why would they attempt to push such racist views?
As for Christians failing to learn from their past? Well I'd have to agree with that in part. Just take a look at what's happenning in America now, with that "us versus them" mentality that thrived from Biblical times through to the middle ages. Having said that, I think Christianity has gone a long way towards evolving from its dark history, which is a good thing even if the entire Christian faith has that whole "change the meaning of our faith to conveniently fit in with contemporary societal values" feel about it. Adopting the Christian faith invariably revolves around either societal or environmental factors ("my parents are Christian" or "my country is Christian") or for pure convenience ("I shall become an Anglican because it preaches the kind of morality I want to hear") rather than because of any genuine metaphysical examination.
So, yeah. There you go. :) |
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| Renegade |
| quote: | | Religion is flawed for a simple reason: it merely prepares man for the next life. |
Yep, this is the kinda Nietzschean, nihilistic rejection of religion. It renders this life meaningless: it is the antithesis of life. I forget who said it now, but it was something like:
"Only when one completely removes the possibility of a life after death, can one be truly happy living in this life."
So atheism thus becomes the more optimistic "belief system" (if you want to call it that, but as I said before it is actually the "rejection" of a belief system) of the two stances. It makes this life meaningful, it adopts a helthy stance towards the present. Christianity is a rejection of humanity, it makes the man sick so that it may offer him hope of infinity. Atheism needs no such pretense to make life meaningful.
And that second point is one of the more commonly used arguments directed at Christianity. God can either be omnibenevolent or omnipotent, bot not both simultaneously, otherwise what Christians call "evil" would not exist. And they cannot say that all evil in the world is the fault of the devil or of humanity (which is another indication of just how pesimistic the Christian faith is towards the human cause) because God is supposedly omniscient, so he would have had the forbearance to see that creating man or Lucifer would have led to evil evolving within his creation. Thus, indirectly or directly, he is responsible for the creation of evil, so how can he be omnibenevolent? |
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| djgarfield |
| I dun believe in God. The church, the institution is pure BS to me. They judge others as if they are exalted and choose to alienate anyone who doesn't believe in christ. I refuse to believe that if person lives his life with good morals and spends his life helping others, he/she is going to hell simply because they dun believe in God. If thats the price i have to pay, then i will burn in hell gladly. To me, everyone has a place in heaven. Gay, straight, black white, it doesn't matter. Your lifestyle or origin is not a reason u should be damned to hell. You should be free to make choices of your own, or Free Will as it was termed was God's gift to us. However, the bible and people of the church do everything in their power to ensure that Free Will is thrown out the window. I am not a literalist and do not believe events inthe bible actually happened. to me, they were left as a lesson or a guide. People interpretation of the bible disappoints me on many levels. They use it as an excuse to discriminate and persecute. This is how to spread the word? I think not. |
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| Izzy |
i am really enjoying reading this. only problem is i can never express myself as well as some of you can, especially in a actuall debate face 2 face.
heres something that kinda hurts me. i have this friend here that i've known for 3 weeks and i know she is a devote christian and when we kinda hit a topic that was appropiate i asked something along the lines of: do you believe the other religions, such as jews, muslims even athiests go to hell when they die? obviously i threw her off gaurd and i could see her having difficulty answering but she said something along the line of "well those who don't accept God into their lives and jesus as the saviour (i think thats how its spelled) end up not going to heaven (implying go to hell)" then she goes on to say how she may be wrong cause its god who decides ... bla bla bla ... (trying to be polite to me - but she just said her god decides based on faith). i dont know it just stirs all these emotions in me, i feel hurt, insulted, angry, sad all at once |
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| Dj O'Callaghan |
| HAHAH agi.My families not from Northern Ireland but I can't understand their hatred, it goe's very far back, the region in eire where my family r from hate protestants, especially the town where their from Drogheda... The Protestants and English slaughtered the civilians because the town refused to surrender, but that hatred is centries old, but the scars ain't healed yet. Its like why do protestants do their Orange march all it doe's is ing piss catholics off, singing their bull songs praising William of ing Orange no offense to any protestant people of these forums but like thats out of order it provakes people to attack and retailiate, Plus aswell on a different note Scotland no offense here to but Rangers supporters do think singing 'we're washing our hands in your Feinian blood' is nice? it ing ain't Orange men wannabe's. anyway less talk of troubles in northern Ireland cos it winds me up anyways I think I created a different arguement of topic cos this is about atheism lol |
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| InsomnEac |
| quote: | Originally posted by Brownitus
I was speaking to those who posted within this thread. I am clearly new (read: 0 posts as of that post) to this board and having said that, obviously wouldn't be directing my comment to the entirety of this message board community.
Oh, and even 1 out of 10 people being "brainwashed" is more than enough. Maybe you should delve into mind control and life institutionalization works that detail the evolution of the spreading of fanaticism. One person can lead to many more. When there are none, the knowledge base, opinions and ideologies in general between the ten are almost identical, making the fear of one "popping up" far less apparent. I would conclude that you agree with this? |
ok man, you're new, sorry if i seemed harsh. However i went back and read the all the posts before yours and counted maybe 2 that seemed somewhat close-minded and spoon-fed. this hardly amounts to "most of the folks here", even if you were only refring to the ones in this thread. i just didn't appreciate that comment. anyway, lets get past it :) , and dont get me wrong, the rest of your post was fantastic, refreshing, a great read! I agree evn 1 out of 10 people can lead to many more, ive seen it happen! hehehe "bunch of easily-led atomatons" (guess the movie). you seem like a very bright guy with some great perspective on this issue (and many others, im sure), i look forward to reading more of your posts.
:cool: |
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| u4ea:[soulstar] |
| quote: | Originally posted by acidfast7
u4ea:[soulstar] -
Nice articulate response.
I am interested in this statement. Not that I doubt that validity of your argument but I'd prefer to see some evidence of this for my own personal edifictaion.
By the way, it is efforts such as yours that keep a thread such as this from disintegrating into a string of flaming arguments.
Roger |
Oh.. Thanks.
This is from shroomery.com:
Based on various cosmological variables, the chances for life occuring in the universe are estimated at 1 in 10 to 10^25 (ten with 25 zeros following), against. It's probability. Really, nobody knows.
I asked if this has to do with quantum cosmology, but the member never gave me an answer.
The other statement, unfortunately, I cannot find it from anandtech.com. :( All I remember at the moment is the user(s) referred to the galaxies's probabilities; and earth's (right) formative elements combined to create earliest forms of life to the present.
Efforts? Me? Nah.. the natives here can behave themselves.. I"ve seen more worse flamefests than this.. hehe I'm merely pointing out that Christianity; Atheism; any kind of one-sided belief structure will impose limitations and self-corruption. Of course, the person does gain it's benefits of new learning, acquiring new skills, and actualization of knowledge given.
As Neitzeche (sp?) said:
"The snake that cannot shed its skin perishes. So too with the minds who are prevented from changing their views; they cease to be minds."
The question is does the skin of the snake changed after shedding? If not, the (frequency) patterns of the old mind still continues..
Keep the Peace |
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| u4ea:[soulstar] |
| quote: | Originally posted by Renegade
Brownitus:
Now I agree entirely that too many Christians adopt their faith unquestioningly and blindly. The point you cited - that Christ was born in October (to our best estimates) yet his birth is celebrated in December - goes to underline this point. How many Christians realise this? Few I would imagine. And it is this blind faith - this unflinching literalsim - that makes me dislike most forms of organised religion.
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So you know the discrepancies of Christianity well. Yet, how well do you know (or have explore) other mystical systems to have garnered your dislike? Is it the teachers, the practitioners, the philosophy? Or all of it?
Keep the Peace |
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| Brownitus |
| quote: | Originally posted by Izzy
i am really enjoying reading this. only problem is i can never express myself as well as some of you can, especially in a actuall debate face 2 face.
heres something that kinda hurts me. i have this friend here that i've known for 3 weeks and i know she is a devote christian and when we kinda hit a topic that was appropiate i asked something along the lines of: do you believe the other religions, such as jews, muslims even athiests go to hell when they die? obviously i threw her off gaurd and i could see her having difficulty answering but she said something along the line of "well those who don't accept God into their lives and jesus as the saviour (i think thats how its spelled) end up not going to heaven (implying go to hell)" then she goes on to say how she may be wrong cause its god who decides ... bla bla bla ... (trying to be polite to me - but she just said her god decides based on faith). i dont know it just stirs all these emotions in me, i feel hurt, insulted, angry, sad all at once |
Izzy, you are not alone. You are actually just another stat as far as situations like this go, and it's very sad. *Disclaimer* The following might be taken as offensive, and if so, indeed it is meant to be:
Your friend is clearly a moron (no, I do not know her personally nor do I know anything about her other than the fact that she is obviously another victim of Christian mind control) by terms of her nonexistant knowledge base in an area that obviously is the basis for her belief system\regular train of thought\reaction system. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if she was Pat Robertson's biggest fan and a regular donator to the 700 Club. One thing to understand is that, most likely, she has not read the bible in full even a mere once (even if her claim is contrary). She does not have any idea whatsoever as to the "true story"-- if you will-- of whom she knows only as Jesus Christ.
The fact is, Yoshua Ben Yosef was a POLITICAL REVOLUTIONARY. Nevermind the garbage of him walking on o2 or feeding crowds of people with crumbs-- meaningless that is aimed at capturing the superstitious\stupid. Then you have Constantine who has a dream of a cross and such, and the likelihood that Jesus never was crucified but instead fled to Egypt and married, had children and has a bloodline that continues to this day-- but that's a whole other story. Christ is Greek for "one who is annointed," and the term was donned upon his legacy for obvious reasons.
Anyways, back to the point at hand-- this friend of yours is going to forever be a slave to Christian Fundamentalism and the voice of a slightly less stupid fool with a white collar, and only so because he is the one controlling the masses every Sunday. |
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| Izzy |
brownitus, i take no offense at all... as InsomnEac said, your posts are excellent (along with everyone here)
it just frustrates me that you are powerless in at least even showing her glimpse of what else is out there in the world, you know what i mean?
btw why does it always show you have 0 posts?
also i guess out of coincidence there was a article in the campus newspaper (the battalion) about a presentation a prof made about how darwin's theory of evolution is wrong but rather belived in the creation theory... and most of what was written could've easily being disproven by acidfast7, seeing as he said he does his graduate degree in that area (am i wrong?) and see's the random mutation that is built into our code to evolve. |
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