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Atheism (pg. 9)
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| Brownitus |
| quote: | Originally posted by KaNoS
Religion is made by people, people makes mistakes, some times thats the only thing we can see, and we forget about the great deeds they also have done. |
The problem with that is twofold:
1. The various religions are LITERALLY "made by people"-- yes. However..
2. Religion in the minds of its followers is that it is created by God.
No religious person acknowledges #1 (and if they do, nothing need be said of how fast they should be executed for such incredible stupidity), and so #2 is the predominant theme and as such, people will ALWAYS stick with their beliefs, which in their minds constitute the law. After all, God cannot be "wrong." |
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| Snooper |
| quote: | Originally posted by Gekhous
i dont believe, cuz i find most religions to be shortminded, ignorant and indoctrinating, they make ppl do the weirdest things (not aiming at the attacks, but more at the middle ages, in which the christians did some pretty sick stuff), other than that, i feel u just need religions if ur not confident of urself enough, if ur self confident enough, u can live without a religion, like i do
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Have to agree with you, I can't find ONE good reason why a god should excist, and that's reason enough for me not to believe. And when I think of all the killing who's been done "in God's name" during the history it makes me feel really bad. |
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| KaNoS |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brownitus
The problem with that is twofold:
1. The various religions are LITERALLY "made by people"-- yes.
No religious person acknowledges #1 (and if they do, nothing need be said of how fast they should be executed for such incredible stupidity)
Nice, with that you leave everysingle people that belives in something beyond material things in a lose-lose situation, in other words, everyone is wrong except you, religious people are stupid, and if they are not, they should die.
Maybe you could explain a bit more plz
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brownitus
2. Religion in the minds of its followers is that it is created by God.
Protestant religions are not made by god, budist religion is not made by god, most african/native american religions are not made by god.
Actually, if i recall correct the ones that claim their religions is made by god, are catholic and jews. Thats only two religions. |
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| Uisgdlyast |
What he's trying to say is that if a religious person belives their religion is made by a person they will die, i mean if you question somethign they'll kill you(look at all the people who died cause they thoguth the earth was round, stupid s).
I find most atheists are open-minded.. i can always have an INTELLIGENT conversation with them, as with a christian they put their fingers in their ears and tell themselves everhyitng will be alright is they just believe.
for all atheists i find this to be a good site wwww.thewaronfaith.com
I'm sorry but history has shown that most of the intelligent and well known people were atheistic.. a christian certainly didnt say the earth was flat cause they were too busy praying.
and since people have been doing quotes.. i'll share some good ones
"The Christian god can be easily pictured as virtually the same as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of the people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
[Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to his nephew, Peter Carr]
The US founding fathers would of pissed their pants if they saw what our money says on it now...
"If you want to save your child from polio, you can pray or you can inoculate....Try science."
[Carl Sagan, "The Demon-Haunted World," p. 30, quoted in "2000 Years of Disbelief, Famous People with the Courage to Doubt", by James A. Haught, Prometheus Books, 1996]
"I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious theories of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God."
..........Thomas Edison
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
..........Albert Einstein
there are millions more
Gen. 19:31 great story about how 2 daughters rape their father.
READ THE BIBLE |
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| KaNoS |
Genesis and all that stuff is pre-jesus things, jesus is the focus of cristianity, jesus came with one message, love others as you love yourself, thats his main message, forgiveness. In a time were a crime was punished with death or something worst, he preached love and second chances.
What did the priest in the past do? abuse of power, killing for stupid things, produced hate, took the bible as unmistaken thing.
What does the church says about that? it accepts it was indeed a great mistake and ask for forgiveness.
Only an ignorant thinks that a person its guilty of its ancestors or fathers crimes.
And theres definitly a lot of people that is atheist that is closed-minded, you probably have an easy time speaking with them because they believe the same things you do. And the thruth challenge come when you speak to someone of diferent believes, even contrary beliefs. And those time theres no people that doesnt close its mind.
| quote: | Originally posted by Uisgdlyast
What he's trying to say is that if a religious person belives their religion is made by a person they will die, i mean if you question somethign they'll kill you(look at all the people who died cause they thoguth the earth was round, stupid s).
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Fact: Religion is a path to find god, religion itself its not god.
Probably fanatism is what you mean by "if you question something they will kill you". Fanatics most times are poor economic people, poor economic people dont have many times the chance to study, they are ignorant. They do what they are told, and many times a religous leader, confuses them by twisting the religion in favor of their own interests. Those people are hypocrites, and in fact they are the ones that have given religion most trouble.
All those cristian people that killed in the name of god, are in fact violating their religion sacred rules.They are not following god, they are following their own greed. But you cant jugde something, by its black sheeps. |
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| Uisgdlyast |
Kanos, i do agree with you. Jesus did teach love, i think he was a great man but i think his followers suck. Even Gandhi said the same thing.
Yes they do ask for forgiveness.. the Church even accepts evolution which is amazing seems how they dont believe in that at all. They are getting more open.
What i really want to say is believe what you want, just make sure you can back it up. If your a christian, read the bible front to back, study the diffrent branches, learn the past about it and the true origin. If you do this and i question something then you'll have an answer, i will also repsect you a lot more.
I hate people who are ignorant and indiffrent to their beliefs and others, a christian who claims to be one but who hasnt even opened a bible are the ones who piss me off.. and the hypocrites, like the ones who have sex or lie and steal.
You never judge a person by their religion or ethnic background, peopel forget that and often tell me to go to hell.. even though my morals are better, i just dont believe in their god |
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| u4ea:[soulstar] |
| quote: | Originally posted by Renegade
lol
Alright, just finished reading your post (took me 20 minutes!) and there's a few things that I'm going to have to say about it, but I've only just woken up (it's 3.30pm here - big night) and I'm just about to go out again now, so I'm not even going to attempt a response at the moment. :D
I'll get up and re-read everything tomorrow when I'm slightly less hazy, and post a response then, after having had 24 hours or so of beard-stroking. :) |
Ugh, my brain cells are toasty too.. I will shaddup and just be content with any feedback you give me. I am going to heed Izzy's insight (props to Izzy! :))..reel back my fishing line on my rod.. ahah
Anyhow, props to you and my respect for your intelligence and your beliefs. Just, don't end up with a complex like some atheists I've seen on the Net. And if you want see some of them stroking their egos, you can check the usenet newsgroups of alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan or talk.religion.buddhism..
Keep the Peace |
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| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by u4ea:[soulstar]
Ugh, my brain cells are toasty too.. I will shaddup and just be content with any feedback you give me. I am going to heed Izzy's insight (props to Izzy! :))..reel back my fishing line on my rod.. ahah
Anyhow, props to you and my respect for your intelligence and your beliefs. Just, don't end up with a complex like some atheists I've seen on the Net. And if you want see some of them stroking their egos, you can check the usenet newsgroups of alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan or talk.religion.buddhism..
Keep the Peace |
awww thanks buddy,
i wanna give you props for always writing "mind altering" views. i've also seen you posts elsewhere and they are quality...
btw same thing applies to a lot of people here too (renegade, brownitus... and all the others names i couldnt think of)
anyways enough sappy-ness. here's a funny story, when i was a really small kid and i learned D&D i started beliving in my own creation of a god of luck (i was in elementry - dont laugh) and this god was equally fair with the bad and the good, so when-ever i had something bad happen i knew it'd get better but when everything was going good i was expecting something to go wrong. i equated everything with being something lucky or not.... :stongue: oh well i grew |
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| Renegade |
| quote: | | Ugh, my brain cells are toasty too.. I will shaddup and just be content with any feedback you give me. |
Haha, yeah, it gets a bit like that doesn't it. :D
But just quickly:
| quote: | | When you say 'virtually', 'dislike' (retracted), 'organized religion', I want to see where you are getting your opinions from, not blanket statements. |
Well, I guess that I have the tendancy to generalise when I talk about religion because all the major religions - with the exception of Buddhism (like I mentioned before, Buddhism is slightly different because of its somewhat adeistic - is that a word? - views) - have the same major themes which I object to, both empirically and morally (i.e. even if these religions can be verified empirically, I still have certain moral objections to the views they propogate).
So, when I talk in "blanket-statement" terms about religion, I'm only really referring to Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Islam (I exclude Buddhism, because like I have said all through this discussion, it has a slightly different philosophy behind it, so I cannot bunch it with the others that I talk about here). Now there are several things that all these religions have in common that I disagree with from a philosophical perspective:
- The demand for - and somewhat hackneyed demonstration of - the absolute: in terms of a metaphysically real god or gods.
- The concept of absolute "morality": each of these religions have some doctrine about certain actions that humanity can and cannot commit, put forward in absolute terms. So, for instance, each will demand that a certain action not be committed, regardless of whatever justification an individual may have for committing it (so, in Juduaism/Christianity, there is the commandment "thou shalt not kill" which is indiscriminate in how/when it should be followed, and about who should follow it). But this is not morality, it is dogma. You will not do this otherwise you will be punished. Now I'm a moral relativist (like I said in the thread in the VIP section) so I'd be happy to go over my objections to the moral absolutes put forward by each of these religions. At best moral absolutes are usless, at worst they are dangerous.
- The concept of sin and judgement: for similar reasons as above.
- The exoneration of individual responsiblity: which is actually one of my main objections to the religions that I'm talking about here.
You see, each of these religions involves the concept of prayer, which, in case you were unaware ( :rolleyes: ), involves the individual pleading with their God to change the circumstances that they are involved in in some way: "Please help me to get better", "Please help me to be a better friend" and so on. But prayer involves the admission that you believe that the circumstances that you have been dealt are somehow beyond your control, and so you are somehow not responsible for your own life. You then feel justified in delegating this responsibility to your God who will watch over you with love - kind of like an infinite, omnipresent mother - will "shoulder your burdens" and ensure that everything turns out for the better. It may sound harmless - or even beneficial - but the fact is that that too many people use religion as an emotional crutch, or as some sort of power that allows them to arrest control - indirectly and without any effort on their part - of their own situation. No longer are they human beings - accidents stuck on a tiny blue speck, ultimately responsible for who they are and who they become - they are now part of God's grand plan, they are no longer alone and no longer responsible for themselves.
For anyone who isn't familiar with his works, I reccomend that you all read Jean-Paul Satre, who goes on at great lengths about these three concepts: freedom, responsibility, choice. While religion (at least the four major ones that I'm discussing here) opts to take the easy route out - I will allow God to be responsible for whatever happens, so as to save me the trouble of worrying about it - the existentialist pushes the notion of individual responsibility. I guess the quote that best sums it up, and the quote that has come as close as any other to changing the way I live my life, is "while one is never free from ones situation, one is always responsible for what is made of one". To many theists, this is a discomforting perspective. It says, ultimately, that regardless of how much you pray, or how fervent your beliefs are, that you, ultimately, and you alone, are responsible for who you are and what you become. You become free: free to choose - nay - obliged to choose. You may be burdened with the responsibility of action, but with that comes the freedom of action. Religion does not allow this: it is the view that says God will shoulder your responsibilites for you, but you must sacrifice your freedom in exchange. You must now visit church every Sunday, you must live by a set of rules that tell you how you should choose and, ultimately, what you must become.
Anyway, I could go on all day about existentialism, but I guess I've said enough to justify my objection(s) to religion.
By the way, u4ea:[soulstar], what exactly are your beliefs with regards to religion, or at least your outlook on life. You've said a lot about what could be true, but not much about what you actually think is true.
Anyway, just a thought. :) |
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| KaNoS |
| quote: | Originally posted by Uisgdlyast
What i really want to say is believe what you want, just make sure you can back it up. If your a christian, read the bible front to back, study the diffrent branches, learn the past about it and the true origin. If you do this and i question something then you'll have an answer, i will also repsect you a lot more.
I hate people who are ignorant and indiffrent to their beliefs and others, a christian who claims to be one but who hasnt even opened a bible are the ones who piss me off.. and the hypocrites, like the ones who have sex or lie and steal.
You never judge a person by their religion or ethnic background, peopel forget that and often tell me to go to hell.. even though my morals are better, i just dont believe in their god |
Agreed
Do not believe in a blind way, ask as many questions as you have, if they cant answer it, search for another one who can. Untill you find god in a way that makes perfect sense to you.
When do i feel god?
When i feel these peace, were the whole world makes sense, i do not feel any emotion, just these peace, no worry for the future, no shame of the past, i feel connected to everything and everything seems conected to me, theres no I, just these peace. |
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| Brownitus |
| quote: | Originally posted by KaNoS
Genesis and all that stuff is pre-jesus things, jesus is the focus of cristianity, jesus came with one message, love others as you love yourself, thats his main message, forgiveness. In a time were a crime was punished with death or something worst, he preached love and second chances. |
Sorry, man.. but that's putting in the blunt, simplistic Flanders-esque manner that gives ignorant Christians the "way out" of any arguments. If Yosef did in fact exist, he was a political revolutionary. Spreading love is a fine description for Christian parents spreading their extremely limited knowledge to their 10 year-old children on the ride to church, but to anyone who understands the importance of Yosef, it was the revolution against the largest empire on earth at the time that made it so inexplicably ominous.
| quote: | What did the priest in the past do? abuse of power, killing for stupid things, produced hate, took the bible as unmistaken thing.
What does the church says about that? it accepts it was indeed a great mistake and ask for forgiveness. |
Sorry, but that abuse of power, killing for stupid things and produced hate is still happening today all over the world as a result of the priests of today.
| quote: | | Only an ignorant thinks that a person its guilty of its ancestors or fathers crimes. |
That's perfectly correct. One small problem, though: 99 ing percent of today's Christians are STILL perpetuating-- whether it be outright or subconsciously due to ignorance-- these intolerable acts by doing everything from celebrating pagan holidays to totally IGNORING these past atrocities and, the biggest proponent of them all, believing in retards like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, both of whom have ridiculously large followings.
| quote: | | All those cristian people that killed in the name of god, are in fact violating their religion sacred rules.They are not following god, they are following their own greed. But you cant jugde something, by its black sheeps. |
Nope, you can't. But you can certainly judge the herds when they follow in the footsteps of the same black sheep. |
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| u4ea:[soulstar] |
| quote: | | Well, I guess that I have the tendancy to generalise when I talk about religion because all the major religions - with the exception of Buddhism (like I mentioned before, Buddhism is slightly different because of its somewhat adeistic - is that a word? - views) - have the same major themes which I object to, both empirically and morally (i.e. even if these religions can be verified empirically, I still have certain moral objections to the views they propogate). |
Not a problem.. :)
Yeah, you could say from your local viewpoint that Buddhism does have atheistic sects; Theravadin (system of morals and ethics); Mahayana (about compassion and love work). All the diversifications from the Theravadin are intermittently connected. China has like 10 sects; Japan has like 3-4; Tibet has 4 schools of Vajrayana, 1 school (Bon) that uses ritual magic.
If Buddha was alive today and see what has evolved from his teachings, he'll either do cartwheels or bring the almighty smackdown!! haha
| quote: | So, when I talk in "blanket-statement" terms about religion, I'm only really referring to Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Islam (I exclude Buddhism, because like I have said all through this discussion, it has a slightly different philosophy behind it, so I cannot bunch it with the others that I talk about here). Now there are several things that all these religions have in common that I disagree with from a philosophical perspective:
* The demand for - and somewhat hackneyed demonstration of - the absolute: in terms of a metaphysically real god or gods.
* The concept of absolute "morality": each of these religions have some doctrine about certain actions that humanity can and cannot commit, put forward in absolute terms. So, for instance, each will demand that a certain action not be committed, regardless of whatever justification an individual may have for committing it (so, in Juduaism/Christianity, there is the commandment "thou shalt not kill" which is indiscriminate in how/when it should be followed, and about who should follow it). But this is not morality, it is dogma. You will not do this otherwise you will be punished. Now I'm a moral relativist (like I said in the thread in the VIP section) so I'd be happy to go over my objections to the moral absolutes put forward by each of these religions. At best moral absolutes are usless, at worst they are dangerous.
* The concept of sin and judgement: for similar reasons as above.
* The exoneration of individual responsiblity: which is actually one of my main objections to the religions that I'm talking about here.
Anyway, I could go on all day about existentialism, but I guess I've said enough to justify my objection(s) to religion. |
Yes, I understand your objections. I agree to some extent about the multi-faceted -responsibilities- of the individual in question. No doubt, your views does not paint pretty pictures of these monotheistic orders. I do see the lighter side of such; provides family atmosphere; discipline; and life purpose. It really comes down to -how- the individual, in whatever faith they're affiliated with, expresses his/her -love- (religious zeal)...
You can object to the philosophies/mysticism, but how will you interact with the person in question?
I read an article in Time but never got the chance to finish it. It was about some 600+ Christian nuns in a research to unravel the mysteries of Alzhiemer's disease. The bulk of these nuns are from ages of 70-100. Most of them have lead a monastic life for decades -- like years in your age X 3-4. :eyes: That's dedication and devotion I cannot even began to fathom! Now, I like you to take your objections to a personal level with those nuns and see if any disagreeable words comes out of your mouth... Hypothetically speaking, of course.. hehe ;)
To illustrate my point: "The outsider is standing on the outside, looking into the inside."
How we do know how deeply touched a person is when he/she is involved with such faiths? How do we know the deep love -that- person has found? I'm not talking about any average person, I am referring to the devoted and the dedicated, both following and working for the orders.
*** I have read experiences of nuns' devoted -prayers- that reached the equalivent of Satori. And if you no idea what Satori/Enligthenment/Samatha is, then you are lacking in your philosophical understanding of such faiths??
| quote: | | By the way, u4ea:[soulstar], what exactly are your beliefs with regards to religion, or at least your outlook on life. You've said a lot about what could be true, but not much about what you actually think is true. |
Ahh.. Well, my compadre (:D), I'm different. As a child I pondered about life and other lifeforms in other places besides this planet. I pondered about the concept of souls. I would wonder about the existence of God. I remember laying on the bed with eyes closed and thought about who created God, and who created that creator who made God, and so on. From looking back, I realized I was experiencing Satori, but I was not matured enough to realize and to understand what I was doing... Those ponderings has never left me..
So with 'religion', I have a fascination, I don't have any beliefs. My hobby is not about 'religions', I look at the people (with or without religious beliefs). I'm like a nomad, for the moment, that does not stick to any given set of rules or dogma. My structure is self-governed based on experiences, intuition, and making parallel-realizations -- both internally and externally. And such with science, I need to reorder or decontruct my realizations when it is necessary and/or new information is available.
My outlook is about being spiritual-aligned and finding my true self on that meandering path because I feel it is very important for me. I feel I must be better and strive to improve (kaizen) oneself in order to fulfill that purpose..
If I do have a belief, a thought that has always been with me, it's continuation of (soul-based) consiousness after death. I haven't a clue why such a thought is there, but it's there since my childhood. From previous years, I've had the knack of (synchronistically) running into people who are also 'different', like healers, energy workers, spiritual-inclined people. They all provide me a values of learning, of guidance, and of growth in spirit of my belief.
I even expressed such a thought into chants, spiritual expressions of highest regard..
I hope that answered your questions.. :P
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awww thanks buddy,
i wanna give you props for always writing "mind altering" views. i've also seen you posts elsewhere and they are quality...
btw same thing applies to a lot of people here too (renegade, brownitus... and all the others names i couldnt think of)
anyways enough sappy-ness. here's a funny story, when i was a really small kid and i learned D&D i started beliving in my own creation of a god of luck (i was in elementry - dont laugh) and this god was equally fair with the bad and the good, so when-ever i had something bad happen i knew it'd get better but when everything was going good i was expecting something to go wrong. i equated everything with being something lucky or not.... oh well i grew |
Hehehe.. Thanks for the kind words.. :D
Hehe.. Seems what you thought as a child was anti-karmic?? Anyhow, there's nothing wrong expressing your honesty.. If you don't, then you're not being honest with yourself, right? |:D Nothing sappy about it all..
I have no idea if you, or Renegade is going to read this - this thread is pretty much dead.. But I feel like winging with this vibe here and hit two birds with one stone.. But mainly this is for you, Izzy..
So I will present to you one of the chants I've used in the past..
Remember how gravity works? How a waterdrop falls down to the ocean? Well just picture yourself as a tear born from the warm ocean.. The ocean, as one tidal wave, is coming to merge with you.. To return you into the lucid waters of the sun..
Friendship
Let these words fade into you.. Let them melt into you heart.. Let each of your breath be filled with sweetness..
Buddha, our Twilight, welcomes us to be a cherished friend.
Through this chaining
Let our Tears for Peace
Bless us with Fearless Strength
So that this Bond be the Pureness
For our Light to protect the Whitest
So that this Unity be the Truest
For our Path against the Blackness
So that this Kinship be Undying
Our Hearts scream beyond Deth
That our souls will be together as one
We will join our brothers and sisters.
Keep the Peace
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