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God Bless Us (pg. 5)
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| Gekhous |
| quote: | Originally posted by Eugene
So one moment you say the US interferes too much in the world and meddles in everyone's business, the next you say it's not doing enough in the world...
Which one is it? Make up your minds! :rolleyes: |
it is HOW they interfere... and i cant agree with the way they interfere most of the time... the US has large problems solving/reacting rational, in stead of letting ppl use their facilities, they use their facilities FOR those ppl, often with the wrong outcome. in stead of helping the Afghanisan Alliance defeat the Taliban, they start bombing Afghanistan, claiming that is the best thing to do, BULL!!!! Afghanistan is way too large for that, the Taliban is way too scattered for that, the only thing the US is doing, is ruining ruines and showing the world their stupidity (no offense on the US citizens here) |
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| twilochik |
| GOD BLESS AMERICA!! You can say what you want about America but we give millions of dollars in aid to a majority of the countries that couldnt survive without our help. Look at the reality of Afghanistan...a miltant group took over the country and keeps the people in poverty to make sure there isnt an uprising. Sounds like a SWELL government to me. The US stayed out of Afghanistans business for years after the Afghan-Russian war. In fact we helped the Afghans defeat the Russians. We had asked for Osama for years on other charges for terrorism in the past and the Tailabn ignored us. We let it slide to keep peace in the in that part of the world since at the time we thought Bin Laden wasnt that big of a threat. And boy were we wrong. But now we want to prevent what happened in our country from happening to us again...and other countries as well. The Tailban and other crazy relgious sects like them don't just hate america...they hate any western culture..that includes europe. Remember, the people of Afghanistan had no vote in who would run their country...they have no say...no free speech...they can only watch what the Taliban lets them...same as in Iraq...they only watch what Sadam lets them. We in America may not be perfect...heck what country is. You say we are imperialistic....well did anyone study history and see how Britain in the 1600 1700 and 1800's even into the 1900's were by far a HUGE imperialistic country colonizing a good part of the World in name of the "Queen". Or should we over look how China marched in and took over Tibet forcing their leading religious figure into exile. Forcing their strict birth laws on Tibet...making woman have forced abortions...not to mention women in their own country to have forced abortions or to kill lil girls bc they are only alotted so many children and since boys are worth more to a family then gurls they kill the gurls. Open your eyes to the ATROCITIES all around this world. America didn't become a super power in this world till the early 1900's. Study some history...learn something...and then forumlate a descision. Don't just pick on America bc you heard your parents talking...or you heard something on the news that blows everything out of proportion...read some history books...study some things...learn bc a whole lot of you come off as insanely ignorant! |
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| Gekhous |
| quote: | Originally posted by twilochik
GOD BLESS AMERICA!! You can say what you want about America but we give millions of dollars in aid to a majority of the countries that couldnt survive without our help. Look at the reality of Afghanistan...a miltant group took over the country and keeps the people in poverty to make sure there isnt an uprising. Sounds like a SWELL government to me. The US stayed out of Afghanistans business for years after the Afghan-Russian war. In fact we helped the Afghans defeat the Russians. We had asked for Osama for years on other charges for terrorism in the past and the Tailabn ignored us. We let it slide to keep peace in the in that part of the world since at the time we thought Bin Laden wasnt that big of a threat. And boy were we wrong. But now we want to prevent what happened in our country from happening to us again...and other countries as well. The Tailban and other crazy relgious sects like them don't just hate america...they hate any western culture..that includes europe. Remember, the people of Afghanistan had no vote in who would run their country...they have no say...no free speech...they can only watch what the Taliban lets them...same as in Iraq...they only watch what Sadam lets them. We in America may not be perfect...heck what country is. You say we are imperialistic....well did anyone study history and see how Britain in the 1600 1700 and 1800's even into the 1900's were by far a HUGE imperialistic country colonizing a good part of the World in name of the "Queen". Or should we over look how China marched in and took over Tibet forcing their leading religious figure into exile. Forcing their strict birth laws on Tibet...making woman have forced abortions...not to mention women in their own country to have forced abortions or to kill lil girls bc they are only alotted so many children and since boys are worth more to a family then gurls they kill the gurls. Open your eyes to the ATROCITIES all around this world. America didn't become a super power in this world till the early 1900's. Study some history...learn something...and then forumlate a descision. Don't just pick on America bc you heard your parents talking...or you heard something on the news that blows everything out of proportion...read some history books...study some things...learn bc a whole lot of you come off as insanely ignorant! |
*takes typing position*
so what ur saying is that America left Afghanistan with no country at all, completely in ruins, thinking the houses, no, the entire infrastructure would rebuild themselves from dust?? and u let it slide for the sake of peace?? HOW THE HELL do u want to maintain peace when there is a radical group of fighters taking over the country?? frikkin DAH Osama & his r against the US, they left them in total after the war with Russia!!!!
and yes, all of Europe has done VERY bad things, everyone has, if we hadnt, the US wouldnt exist!!! but that was, u said it right, in the 1600s, but this aint the 1600s, this is the year 2001, and i thank u for bringing it up, cuz ur comparing the US with the rest of the world ages ago, just like we now compare the Taliban etc with how we acted ages ago, so from ur words, i can conclude that the US is doin the same as the Taliban...
and this one i luv most: "Don't just pick on America bc you heard your parents talking...or you heard something on the news that blows everything out of proportion...read some history books...study some things...learn bc a whole lot of you come off as insanely ignorant"
1. my parents dont have a straight opinion about this, cuz they r not good at history, and all they hear/see is the news...
2. the USA is the most dependant (western) country on the media, if i may quote a teacher of mine, who often had American friends visiting them, untill we legalized weed: "they phoned us, saying they wouldnt visit us no more, cuz Holland was full of junkies, everyone used pot, it would be of a very bad influence on their kids" hell, if an American newspaper said Holland was a muslim country, 85% of the US ppl would believe it!!!
3. read history books, study things, YES, INDEED, USA, LEARN ABOUT THE WORLD!!!!!! learn about places uve never heard of, learn about things uve never heard of, learn about ppl uve never heard of, and learn to know those places, those things, those ppl!!! open ur eyes, and see a world of ppl, different ppl, different opinions, different religions, and try to understand em, once u succeeded in that, THEN u may take action |
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| cweb |
you're right about europeans being no better than the US, especially in the past! They have done so much in this world (look at afica, its so sad how they destroyed their developement, and dont say "hey look europe helps africa with money and food", thats a very lame excuse). But we have to look now and try to defend human rights today, and not say look what the UK did, we can do that as well. As for this "help", its hust hilarious. Do you think throwing food, who is prepared our way, not how these peeps want it, into grounds where there are several bombs, who didnt explode is really that good of an idea? Is just to show the world the good manner of the USA.
P.s.: USA is build from europeans (+minor groups of other continents). |
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| Eugene |
| quote: | Originally posted by Gekhous
they start bombing Afghanistan, claiming that is the best thing to do, BULL!!!! Afghanistan is way too large for that, the Taliban is way too scattered for that, the only thing the US is doing, is ruining ruines and showing the world their stupidity (no offense on the US citizens here) |
There is no better military expert or strategist than Gekhous...
:rolleyes:
Thought so.
Re-read my post about it on the last page, d00d! Applies directly to you.
| quote: | Originally posted by cweb
As for this "help", its hust hilarious. Do you think throwing food, who is prepared our way, not how these peeps want it, into grounds where there are several bombs, who didnt explode is really that good of an idea?
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What amazes me is how you think you know what you're talking about when you got your facts seriously ed up. It's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you're saying. The food is prepared EXACTLY the way the Muslims would accept it. Are you out of your mind, thinking the US would prepare it any other way in a time like this, and for this purpose??
| quote: | [i]Originally posted by mr_stamper
I said the US interferes too much?? and when exactly did i say that??
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That was said by other people here, but you, just like them, trash America whenever you feel like it, the problem is just to find a reason. That's why I make no distinction between you and them. And that's why I said, "make up your mindS". |
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| Renegade |
Yeah there's no element of reletivity in this. There's no precedent - you can't just cite what happened in Europe 400 years ago as justification for what Bush is doing in this moment.
And just to clear things up a bit, Osama Bin Laden's al Queida (sic) group and the Taleban are completely seperate entities: the Taleban is simply allowing Osama Bin Laden and his crew to stay in Afghanistan. They had nothing to do with the attacks, and I'm not exactly sure how they became implicated in the whole thing, and why exactly America feels that complete annihilation of that government is necessary in its quest for "justice". I know the Taleban are inhuman bastards, and I'm aware of what's going on in that country, but it's still a case of America telling the rest of the world what is acceptable and what isn't. Where do you draw the line then? Is America free to walk in and depose any government it happens to disagree with, given even the slightest hint of provocation? Or is it just those countries that aren't capitalist or Christian that feel the wrath?
And can someone please explain to me what Bush is trying to solve here? He is pushing the world to the brink of war - and for what? To make peace? To make a ing point? He isn't going to solve the problem of terrorism with warfare, believe me. It's just going to give the Middle-Eastern terrorist factions even more reason to be pissed off. So what's the plan then? Keep mowing everyone down until it all stops? Close your eyes to international opinion and comfort yourself with the knowledge that you must be doing it the right way because you have the flag and a "righteous" god behind you? Where does it end, Mr. Bush, where does it end?
Someone once said that "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" and in this case it rings more true than ever. There is just an inherent, inexorable self-righteousness about American politics - it's done this way or no way at all. Look at the Kyoto environment treaty: Bush pulls out because "the American way of life is not negotiable". Yep, makes sense. I suppose if the US wants to consume 25% of the worlds natural resources with just 4% of the worlds population, the rest of the world will just have to stand by and applaud, yeah? Does no-one else find this complete unwillingness to acknowledge the needs of the rest of the world scary? Why do the US think they have all the answers in the first place?
Now don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to justify what happened on September 11, not in the least. What happened was immoral and inteolerable. Those responsible deserve to be brought to justice - but this does not give the US an open invitation to wipe out anyone it disagrees with in one foul swoop. Deposing the Taleban would bring the Northern Alliance into power.....has anyone actually taken note of the genuine acts of bastedary that this group has committed? They're every bit as bad as the Taleban - but seeing as they aren't as anti-US as the current government, apparently it's in the US's best interests to get them into power. But how long will it take them to turn against the US anyway? America trained many of the terrorists we're talking about here in a bid to give the Russians a kick in the arse. Good idea in the short term, look at where it got them in the long term. And again with supporting Iraq in its bid to fight Iran - they got rid of the Ayatolah, then just ended up with his more miliantly sophisticated Iraqi equivolent, Saddam Hussein, and then ended up right where they started. Same deal with the Northern Alliance then. Help them to topple the Taleban now, and all you end up with is a government 20 years down the track with the same ideologies but simply a more sophisticated weaponry. So for anyone questioning why America should stay right away from international politics, that's your answer. It has the tendancy to embark on moral crusades that seem important at the time, but ultimately prove to be more trouble than their worth. Look at all the expenditure - both in terms of money and lives lost - in the prevention of communism. Vietnam? The Cold War? McCartyism? Were they necessary? Didn't communism just fall over on its own during the last decade?
So, to cut a long story short, if America is genuine about wanting to solve this problem of terrorism, it has to stay out of middle-eastern politics (seeing as all previous efforts of intervening in Middle-Eastern politics have proved fruitless) and wait for all the anti-American sentiment to died down - out of sight, out of mind. War ain't gonna work Mr. Bush, get Bin Laden and let it be. You aren't going to stamp out terrorism by force: listen to what the terrorists want. Listen to what Bin Laden is saying. Just because he is a demented , it doesn't mean you have to ignore what he is saying. If you want him, and everyone who shares his views, to shed their empassioned anger directed towards the US, you have to get your nose out of their politics. Forget for a second that you are the best country in the world, and consider, just for a second, that your way may not be the only way, and try to understand (rationally - without the American flag clouding your vision) that you cannot go on trying to control the world, getting everyone to submit to your demands like some megalomaniacal monster. If you want to stop this, try and accept the fact that the world extends beyond your shores, and that anything that happens beyond that coastline of yours is not just an excuse to mount your moral high-horse and make a point. There is life - human life - at stake here and this is not something to around with. Two wrongs don't make a right: just please get out of Afghanistan before you pull the rest of the world - including my own country - into a war that never needed to happen in the first place. |
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| Renegade |
| Oh and Eugene. You seem quite good at making specious criticisms towards the arguments of others, but can you actually come up with any decent justification of your own for what's going on right now? |
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| Gekhous |
*kneels before Renegade*
damn Renegade, have u ever considered a carreer in this?!?!?!
damn good txt bro!!! |
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| Eugene |
| quote: | Originally posted by Renegade
Oh and Eugene. You seem quite good at making specious criticisms towards the arguments of others, but can you actually come up with any decent justification of your own for what's going on right now? |
Wow, my friend, such vocabulary words... "specious..." I'm impressed!
To answer your question: Absolutely. There was conclusive evidence, shown to many countries around the world, that bin Laden and his network were directly responsible for the attacks; the US demanded that the Talibans hand him over, and gave them a month for this; the Talibans refused, thereby siding with the terrorists; and so the Taliban became an enemy no different from the terrorists. If they won't hand over bin Laden, the US will get him anyway. |
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| Gekhous |
| quote: | Originally posted by Eugene
Wow, my friend, such vocabulary words... "specious..." I'm impressed!
To answer your question: Absolutely. There was conclusive evidence, shown to many countries around the world, that bin Laden and his network were directly responsible for the attacks; the US demanded that the Talibans hand him over, and gave them a month for this; the Talibans refused, thereby siding with the terrorists; and so the Taliban became an enemy no different from the terrorists. If they won't hand over bin Laden, the US will get him anyway. |
Pakistan still claims not to have seem direct proof of bin Ladens guild, and looking at all the mystery around the "conclusive evidence", i think id go with Pakistan, the US still hasnt got proof bin Laden REALLY did it, and who says the Taliban knows where bin Laden is?? yeah, if we may believe our sources, he must be in Afghanistan, but does that mean the Taliban knows where?? u think by bombing the entire country, bin Laden will rise out of a mountain, waving a lill white flag (or, how u would like it most, an American flag, since u always like to wave those around on any occasion), well, if u think that, u were not even ment to think!! as long as bin Laden is in Afghanistan, there is no way u can find him by using violence...
what if, for example, bin Laden turns up to be in the UK, and the UK government cant find him, ru gonna bomb the UK then as well, since they wont hand him over?? |
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| Eugene |
| quote: | Originally posted by Gekhous
Pakistan still claims not to have seem direct proof of bin Ladens guild |
Rather than spread misleading information that you don't know about, read this CNN article:
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiap...ence/index.html
"Pakistan says: Evidence exists to indict Bin Laden"
And, everybody, please know your facts before you post something as stupid as that! |
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| twilochik |
| Renegade...you made some very good points...first off I would like to point out that I wasnt saying that bc England had been imperialistic that it gave the US right to. I was merely pointing out that other countries had been far more imperialistic...the US doesn't take over countries. And about the whole Christian thing..that we don't accept other religions...hello in America we are free to practice whatever religion we want. There is no official religion in this country though our government does recognize a "God" but they dont say which "god" it is. And people assume that its the Christian God b/c the majority of America is some form of christianity but that assumption is wrong. So why we would go after people of different religions is just absurd. I mean we support Israel...India...China...all those countries arent christain. And the Taliban is linked to the Bin Laden...they receive money from him...they harbor him...they work for the same purpose...the Taliban is working with him...so they are not separate. And by elminating the Taliban we are not giving free reign to the Northern Alliance. President Bush said that there is to be no favorites and that anyone wishing to assume leadership should all have the same chance so long as they arent a ulta wacko sect of a religion. I'm not going to debate this any further with all of you...you're not going to change my mind...and I'm not going to change yours...that wasnt even my intention...my main purpose was to bring to light things that people like to overlook about other countries. Like I said America may not be perfect but no country is. We are just a bigger target and we get picked on more bc we are more willing to get involved in things...and whether you think that is good or bad...I wonder what the world would honestly be like if the US was to take a neutral stance like the Swiss...we would give no money to anyone bc we wouldnt want to get involved...we would turn our heads and bury them in the sand when we see goverments hurting their own people....we would just care about ourselves and our country....something you claim we only do already...I wonder what type of world it would be then when the leading economic power wouldnt share with anyone else...then what? |
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