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Welcome Private Health Care (Quebec first, Canada next?) (pg. 9)
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| amb_ |
| quote: | Originally posted by loca
They should, but a lot of the times they don't. Like i said previously, when we were living here (yes, as CITIZENS omg!), my brother had to wait 3 bloody hours just to get x-rays on an arm we knew was broken. Surely that shows how clogged up everything is. |
| quote: | Main Entry: tri·age
Pronunciation: trE-'äzh, 'trE-"
Function: noun
Etymology: French, sorting, sifting, from trier to sort, from Old French -- more at TRY
: the sorting of and allocation of treatment to patients and especially battle and disaster victims according to a system of priorities designed to maximize the number of survivors; broadly : the assigning of priority order to projects on the basis of where funds and resources can be best used or are most needed |
This means the sickest get served first. Emergency staff and resources get dedicated to those who need it more... A broken arm on an otherwise healthy young man is a lot less important than a shooting victim or a geriatric with a fractured hip. |
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| malek |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
Ok 2 issues with this statement....
1) if you are right then what kind of fraud is this country purpetrating? We demand doctors and professionals and turn down anything less (unless they are family class/refugee) then tell them that their degrees are worthless when they get here? Talk about bait and switch! Either tell them straight up that we wont accept their degree or allow them to work as professionals when they arrive
2) In most cases i dont agree because many foreign trained doctors are actually better qualified than canadian trained. Its very arrogant and self serving to believe that our eductational system is the best in the world. Id rather have a doctor from poland or brazil treat me than some of the quacks we turn out. Education systems in many parts of the world are far superior to ours.
Like my argentine friend says "in argentina i was a high school english teacher and i speak english but i know 2 spanish professors here that can hardly speak to me in spanish"
Sad sad sad |
1) look doctors are well educated people, they would know (either via their own contacts or worse, god forbid, embassy info) that practicing here is impossible UNLESS they go back to school, they surely don't mind about that since they STILL accept to move over here. Because their quality life is better here than from where they're coming and they want to save their children be it at the expense of their profession.
2) yeah sure :rolleyes:, no offence, but you're way off. There's a reason why only American and some very few european countries doctors are permitted to practice here, education standards are the same in this short list. Its not arrogant, thats the way it is, wake up its the real world. There must be a reason why North American doctors are welcomed anywhere in the world, geee I wonder why.
My friend buys heroin and he always bitch that heroin is better in Afghanistan... I wonder why isn't he moving there.:rolleyes: |
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| loca |
| quote: | Originally posted by amb_
This means the sickest get served first. Emergency staff and resources get dedicated to those who need it more... A broken arm on an otherwise healthy young man is a lot less important than a shooting victim or a geriatric with a fractured hip. |
I understand that of course. My problem is that it doesn't take that long in most countries! In any european hospital, that kind of wait time is completely unnaceptable (and that goes for both public and private).
Malek, i can't believe your friend had to wait 24 hours! That's absolutely insane. Again, the benefits here of two-tier healthcare show the advantage. I'd rather pay to get seen straight away than have to wait 24 hours for someone to finally look at my problem. |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by malek
1) look doctors are well educated people, they would know (either via their own contacts or worse, god forbid, embassy info) that practicing here is impossible UNLESS they go back to school, they surely don't mind about that since they STILL accept to move over here. Because their quality life is better here than from where they're coming and they want to save their children be it at the expense of their profession.
2) yeah sure :rolleyes:, no offence, but you're way off. There's a reason why only American and some very few european countries doctors are permitted to practice here, education standards are the same in this short list. Its not arrogant, thats the way it is, wake up its the real world. There must be a reason why North American doctors are welcomed anywhere in the world, geee I wonder why.
My friend buys heroin and he always bitch that heroin is better in Afghanistan... I wonder why isn't he moving there.:rolleyes: |
Actually even european doctors have a hard time getting licenced here. You know why? because the college of physicians and surgeons dont want it to be easy for foreign trained doctors to work here. It has nothing to do with skill. The college of physicians and surgeons ans well as the college of teachers actually WANT shortages. That way they have more leverage over the government when it comes to re-negotiating contracts. The more demand there is for them the more power they have to wield over the government for more taxpayer money. This is why teachers in particular are on strike every 4 years.
Dont fool yourself into thinking that this has anything to do with skill or qualifications. Thats just a successful manipulation of the general public's preconceived stereotypes.
As for immigrants knowing before they arrive about how difficult it is? NO WAY! I know of a few people who went to seminars set up by the canadian government in foreign countries to try and attract skilled immigrants. Basically its the same story everywhere. Come to canada! We have a shortage! We need you! Then they arrive and are told by another regulatory body that they are no good. |
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| preylude |
| quote: | Originally posted by rabbitjoker
The spirit of co-operation, distributed risk, shared resources and weath are paramount to Canada functioning and remaining a country. |
No, no RJ. I personally think that spirit of "Well I'm OK, f*ck everyone else" advocated by Conservatives/Republicans is a much better course for society. |
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| Spam |
| quote: | Originally posted by preylude
No, no RJ. I personally think that spirit of "Well I'm OK, f*ck everyone else" advocated by Conservatives/Republicans is a much better course for society. |
You know, it might not be such a bad idea for at least a few people these days to learn to take responsibility for themselves. The opposite view (the Liberal one) teaches everyone that "It's ok, I'm ed, but all those people who actually take care of themselves will help me out!" |
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| Jayx1 |
a balance is good. Take responsiblity for yourself but if you truely need the help it should be there.
This is what two-tier european style medicine would be. If you can take care of yourself, do it. If you cant there is the public system that will.
Thank god for this court ruling. Finally its ok for people to openly critisize the status quo. I hope this leads to serious discussion and reform of the system. Of course Mr dithers is trying to put the lid on it as fast as possible.
What? Change? Democracy? Why would the liberals want that when the current system keeps them in power? |
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| preylude |
| quote: | Originally posted by Spam
You know, it might not be such a bad idea for at least a few people these days to learn to take responsibility for themselves. The opposite view (the Liberal one) teaches everyone that "It's ok, I'm ed, but all those people who actually take care of themselves will help me out!" |
We're talking about health care here. I suppose people just need to "take responsibiliy" for becoming ill and needing expensive medical treatment. I mean, Ok -- if you smoke heavily and end up getting lung cancer -- that's pretty much your fault. But most medical conditions are due to genetics or environmental factors.
The "Liberal view" does not at all advocate being lazy and relying on others to solve one's problems. It simply tries to give everyone a fair and even chance to succeed in life.
Supporting private health care, on the other hand, is saying that a certain number of privileged people (those with surplus money) should be able to pay to get priority over everyone else. This is the "Hey, I have money, so I can pay and get great service -- Everyone else? Who cares? They'll just have to make do with the leftovers" attitude. |
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| b4k-oz |
| quote: | Originally posted by preylude
We're talking about health care here. I suppose people just need to "take responsibiliy" for becoming ill and needing expensive medical treatment. I mean, Ok -- if you smoke heavily and end up getting lung cancer -- that's pretty much your fault. But most medical conditions are due to genetics or environmental factors.
The "Liberal view" does not at all advocate being lazy and relying on others to solve one's problems. It simply tries to give everyone a fair and even chance to succeed in life.
Supporting private health care, on the other hand, is saying that a certain number of privileged people (those with surplus money) should be able to pay to get priority over everyone else. This is the "Hey, I have money, so I can pay and get great service -- Everyone else? Who cares? They'll just have to make do with the leftovers" attitude. |
Whew...lots has happened in this thread.
Preylude your last paragraph says exactly what I've been advocating since the beginning. Seems that lately this attitude has been sticking it's ugly head-up......and now that it's been endorsed, I feel that all our individuality as Canadians has just been thrown out the window....Canadians with total lack of care and disregard who go against the grain of ethics and moral is what will bring down Canada's good value....which is looking more and more like the USA's policy. Those who preach that we should be more responsible are doing the exact opposite of acting responsibly. This lax and insensitive attitude from those who call themselves Canadians is downright shameful and arrogant...and I can only say that i feel sorry for those individuals because they only know how to see things in 2 colours....and condone class seperating in Canada... which is a totally disgusting character trait in my eyes.
If there is a god...may he have mercy on your soul.
I'm outtie guys... c u at digger... Wewhooooooooooo!!!!! |
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| loca |
| quote: | Originally posted by b4k-oz
Whew...lots has happened in this thread.
Preylude your last paragraph says exactly what I've been advocating since the beginning. Seems that lately this attitude has been sticking it's ugly head-up......and now that it's been endorsed, I feel that all our individuality as Canadians has just been thrown out the window....Canadians with total lack of care and disregard who go against the grain of ethics and moral is what will bring down Canada's good value....which is looking more and more like the USA's policy. Those who preach that we should be more responsible are doing the exact opposite of acting responsibly. This lax and insensitive attitude from those who call themselves Canadians is downright shameful and arrogant...and I can only say that i feel sorry for those individuals because they only know how to see things in 2 colours....and condone class seperating in Canada... which is a totally disgusting character trait in my eyes.
If there is a god...may he have mercy on your soul.
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Uhm... what?! You're saying that if we support two-tier healthcare we are digusting? I find that pretty insulting actually.
Jesus people what is it about the fact that this works for other countries that you don't understand?? Secondly, once again, you keep bringing up the argument that we're following the States' example. We are not. The states do not have two-tier healthcare, i repeat, do not. So please, let's move on with the rebuttals shall we? This is becoming boring.
Secondly... class separating?? Come on! Are you implying that all countries (we're talking 1st world ones, european countries) who have two-tier systems are separating the classes? LOL I would love to see proof of that statement! :D |
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| Spam |
| quote: | Originally posted by preylude
We're talking about health care here. I suppose people just need to "take responsibiliy" for becoming ill and needing expensive medical treatment. I mean, Ok -- if you smoke heavily and end up getting lung cancer -- that's pretty much your fault. But most medical conditions are due to genetics or environmental factors.
The "Liberal view" does not at all advocate being lazy and relying on others to solve one's problems. It simply tries to give everyone a fair and even chance to succeed in life.
Supporting private health care, on the other hand, is saying that a certain number of privileged people (those with surplus money) should be able to pay to get priority over everyone else. This is the "Hey, I have money, so I can pay and get great service -- Everyone else? Who cares? They'll just have to make do with the leftovers" attitude. |
People 'take responsibility' for becoming ill by doing what everyone else in the world except Canadians do in preperation for unexpected health-care costs. BUDGET and SAVE MONEY! (Or get private health insurance).
And where do you get the idea that people who use the Private system are taking priority over the people who aren't paying? It would be an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT system from the system that people using the free system would use.
And also, what is it about TWO TIER that you and b4k keep misunderstanding? You both keep up with this "Well, in America, such and such." Who the hell cares what happens in America? America does NOT use a Two-Tier health-care system, it's 100% PRIVATE.
In a 2-tier system, you have PUBLIC hospitals, and PRIVATE hospitals. If you have the money to pay for it, you go Private. You were dumb and didn't setup an emergency Medical Budget, or, you just can't afford to? Go Public. The Public system will have to deal with less patients because many will opt for Private care, and because of that, neither system will be clogged (although Public would be understandably busier). There are no leftovers, with less patients to deal with, money could be better-spent on the Public system (in other words, we'd see more done with our tax dollars). And, because suddenly there'd be competition, the Public system would have to make actual changes to the way it does things so that it works.
But you know what the coolest thing about a 2-tier system is? IT WORKS! Which is in direct contrast to our current system. Where we keep throwing money into a black-hole, and things keep getting worse and worse. I don't know about you guys, but I like my money, and when the GOvernment takes it away just to waste it on a faulty health-care system, I'm none to happy about that, and would LOVE to see some change. |
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| preylude |
I really hate getting involved in discussions about health care with conservative parrots. The reason? I know I've already lost the battle. Private health care exists and will continue to expand in Canada. This is mostly due to international economics. The States has a much bigger economy than Canada, and the physical proximity and trade laws make it very easy for the effects of their economy to trickle their way up here.
You people who keep saying that two-tier health care will make things cheaper and better for everyone, and that it doesn't amount to pushing other less fortunte people out of the way to get first in line are completely delusional, but I can understand why. Its a story that's easy to believe and makes one feel not so slimy about the whole thing.
The unfortunate truth, however, is that the only reason private health care exists anywhere is so people can profit from the one thing that people don't put a spending cap on.
Without your health, you have nothing. If you are dying, you will go to significant efforts to try and avoid death. If someone you love is dying, you will pay any amount, sell anything you have, and go into any amount of debt to save them.
This is what for-profit health providers take advantage of. They are preying and leaching off the human will to survive and protect the ones we love.
Human health shouldn't be something that can be bought and sold as a commodity. Seriously, that's only one step away from humans themselves being bought and sold -- which we've really reduced in recent decades.
But it's already starting to become that way here, and will almost certainly become worse as more and more people believe in this insane fantasy of private health care making things better for everyone. |
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