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What does God have against the scouts? (pg. 6)
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk::
well, according to the doctrine, our moral code is currupt. some people dont think lying is wrong. people are murdered everyday. somebody robs somebody everyday. many people think there is nothing wrong with pre-marital sex. all these are against what is taught in the bible, and so to a christian, the bible is the only perfect moral code to live by. |
Some "morals" you can ratify rationally, some you cant. Those you can would apply to everyone. |
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| ::TranceVanDyk:: |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Hmmm so let me get this straight. You lay out a system of virtuous behaviour as defined by the teachings of the bible. Despite the teachings of the bible, a man who is biblicaly virtuous with the sole exception of him not believing in God or Jesus Christ is forever damned compared to a man who is biblically wicked (yet believes in God/Jesus) and confesses his sins to a priest??? Are you insinuating that virtuous behaviour (as defined by the bible) is so intagible that the belief in God/Jesus Christ trumps every other biblical consideration??? Please tell me, why does god value the belief in HIM and his "SON" over EVERYTHING else if he is a JUST god?
And please Heinz, I'm sorry to be so blunt, but you used to be a strict christian until its fundamentalstic beliefs conflicted with desire. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But there's nothing worse than intellectual dishonesty. Because you're not deluding us ... you're deluding yourself. |
according to the doctrine, no one is biblically virtuous without god. but, one becomes biblically vurtuous by his faith in god.
occ, i would be lying to myself if i said, "i dont believe in god." no matter how many times i could say it, or declare myself atheist, i would always in the back of my head know that i do believe in god no matter what i do. but to call myself a christian is to be a hypocrit, because i do whatever i want. ill always be a theist.
| quote: | | Some "morals" you can ratify rationally, some you cant. Those you can would apply to everyone. |
if youve lied, your a liar, if youve stolen, your a thief, dishonored your parents, your a rebel child. there is no rationality to this. we all look down on liars and thiefs, yet we do it ourselves. |
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| mark_the_gooner |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
So, its impossible to know right and wrong if you dont read the bible? And the bible is the only answer to what is right and wrong, its impossible to think by yourself? :conf: |
hmm, no that wasn't quite what i was trying to say, i was more heading at the fact that the Jesus' teachings can answer questions that even today has brung along (even drugs which weren't around in those days).
Saying this, people still can think for themselves, and don't have to read the bible to know the right or wrong doings. |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk::
if youve lied, your a liar, if youve stolen, your a thief, dishonored your parents, your a rebel child. there is no rationality to this. we all look down on liars and thiefs, yet we do it ourselves. |
Lieing isnt necisarily wrong, but most times stupid. If you steal something, you have done something that is rationally wrong as well, so thats why we have laws against it in pretty much every country in the world. Rebel childs isnt necisairly bad either, quite the opposite cause if we were always following our parents society wouldnt really move forward... thats also the reason why we dont have any laws against rebelling your parents... so you see, all biblical morals isnt right for everyone... so its not the only source... |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by mark_the_gooner
hmm, no that wasn't quite what i was trying to say, i was more heading at the fact that the Jesus' teachings can answer questions that even today has brung along (even drugs which weren't around in those days).
Saying this, people still can think for themselves, and don't have to read the bible to know the right or wrong doings. |
yeah yeah jesus was a great man yada yada, but that doesnt mean that everything he said was right, he should be treated as any other philosopher not as a god. So to say he is always right and follow his word is stupid imo, times change and so should our morals. So im with you if you get inspiration from the bible, but what im trying to say is that its possible to live a life without the bible and that you shouldnt only read the bible, but other thigns and also think by yourself.
And fyi, drugs such as opium existed long before jesus time ;) |
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| ::TranceVanDyk:: |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
yeah yeah jesus was a great man yada yada, but that doesnt mean that everything he said was right, he should be treated as any other philosopher not as a god. So to say he is always right and follow his word is stupid imo, times change and so should our morals. So im with you if you get inspiration from the bible, but what im trying to say is that its possible to live a life without the bible and that you shouldnt only read the bible, but other thigns and also think by yourself.
And fyi, drugs such as opium existed long before jesus time ;) |
what is different from other philosophers and teachers about jesus is..
1) he claimed to be the son of god, therefore making him equal to god.
2) he performed numorous miracles and many divine happenings.
3) he rose from the dead
4) his entire life was written out hundreds of years before he was even born.
5) he fulfilled all of the dozens of prophecies written hundreds of years before jesus's time.
6) what he taught is still applicable even after 2000 years.
this is why so many people believe in jesus. |
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| apostrophe |
| quote: | Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk::
what is different from other philosophers and teachers about jesus is..
1) he claimed to be the son of god, therefore making him equal to god.
2) he performed numorous miracles and many divine happenings.
3) he rose from the dead
4) his entire life was written out hundreds of years before he was even born.
5) he fulfilled all of the dozens of prophecies written hundreds of years before jesus's time.
6) what he taught is still applicable even after 2000 years.
this is why so many people believe in jesus. |
Uh oh, the Jesus argument. I myself was raised in a Christian home - went to church, read the Bible. Now, there's numerous references to Jesus in many different cultures. His exsistance isn't really in dispute by historians, yet his deeds are.
Take the Bible for what it is. Christian Mythology. No intentions to offend here, but that is simply what it is by definition. What makes Christian mythology so much more 'right' than other's? Other mythological figures preformed greater than life feats, and generally the modern world has come to accept they are simply myths. Jesus stands out...because...? |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk::
according to the doctrine, no one is biblically virtuous without god. but, one becomes biblically vurtuous by his faith in god.
occ, i would be lying to myself if i said, "i dont believe in god." no matter how many times i could say it, or declare myself atheist, i would always in the back of my head know that i do believe in god no matter what i do. but to call myself a christian is to be a hypocrit, because i do whatever i want. ill always be a theist.
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Yes, I understand the tenants of the bible perfectly well. The only way one can acheive salvation is through god and jesus blah blah blah blah. What I am asking you, is why would a just god be so preoccupied, no obsessed, with prioritizing the worship of him and his son over any other consideration, even if that person practices the behaviour of what God and Jesus explicitly preach? What is the point of any moralistic statements from the bible if it is all negated by the lack of mere belief in God/Jesus? How is that just?
So allow me to ask you something, as a non-Christian, how do you feel about going to hell? |
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| squirrelly |
Okay let me start by apologizing for being MIA this week, physical therapy was a bit more intense than I had imagined it would be, so I was bed ridden the past few days. But now thanks to pain killers, I am more than able (if not a bit fuzzy headed however) to respond to some of these posts. Apologies in advance if some of them seem a little spacey.
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
Now I understand what you mean. In your initial post you stated "evolution" as an answer to what created life and followed up with a comment about science class, so I took it that by evolution you meant the Darwinian hypothesis. Apologies for misunderstanding, but if evolution is simply meant to be "some process" towards higher complexity through interrelated phenomena (as in the dictionary definition you quoted) then it's not really a clear answer to the question, as that process could be orchestrated by a god and still be evolution. But again, sorry for misunderstanding. |
Right, I don't really remember what we were arguing about here, but if the misunderstanding is cleared, no need to continue on with the argument, right? :)
| quote: | | Now, don't play the innocent foreigner attacked by the evil forum troll. |
I wasn't attempting to do that, I was merely attempting to applaud myself for at least attempting to make myself clear without really being too sure on the terminology that I was using.
| quote: | | First of all, English is my second language too. Second, my first reply to you was clean (and you had even complained that nobody would debate you), and you answered it by something that could easily be interpreted as questioning my knowledge (and consequently implying that I am the kind of person that would lecture you on things I know about): |
Actually for once I don't think I was trying to offend anyone.
| quote: | You then followed that by painting up a straw man
basically putting me in the same group as the religious fanatics of this thread, even if the second part of the very post you replied to was a dismissal of their ideas. Both are rude argumentation tactics, and I don't think that my insistence on clarifying what is meant by evolution comes even close to that level of contempt for the other person's intellect. |
Hmm, I do believe you may have just taken things the wrong way, which is understandable, and happens often on internet forums. No hard feelings though, this is a debate, and if we all agreed then it would be quite boring.
| quote: | Originally posted by mark_the_gooner
Even if you don't believe what the Bible says is true, it still has an answer to any "right"/"wrong" doing. Anything in life you do and think "was that right of me?" |
Actually most parents (providing that they are fit) would be able to answer those questions for you as well. And people lived long before the Bible existed, do you honestly think there was never anyone around to tell them the difference between right or wrong? I think not.
| quote: | | if you look in the Bible, do a bit of interpreting (since it is just under 2000 years old) you should find an answer. |
I wonder if Priests do that just before molesting little boys. Does it say anywhere in the Bible whether or not that is wrong?
| quote: | | Also since alot of what the new testament (in the bible) says, has been proven true by scientists/historians/astrologists/etc.. it is hard to find that some of it is a lie. |
Has been proven true? Links please for your information. I would loooooooove some verifiable proof that Jesus was indeed the son of God. And it's been proven true that he rose from the dead? I don't think so. Has it been proven true that he was the son of God? I don't think so, we can't even prove that there really is a God, how can we prove he has a son? It's all hearsay.
| quote: | | An example i can think of at the moment is: the star above bethlehem, astrologists originally thought "this is nonsense, we've analysed the movement of stars & planets and seen that there couldn't have been any bright star/planet "above" bethlehem" but when they looked back about 6 years they saw that there was a "bright star" (actually Jupiter i think, which obviously was bright because it was reflecting the sun). Also this kind of thing only ever happened in those days when a king was born (though i guess this leads to another belief). |
Right, so there was a brightly lit star/planet above a city and we are able to prove that, so it automatically means that an entire religion can be deemed true? I think not.
| quote: | | And a last note, i guess someone's belief relies on experience, e.g they know (or are) someone that has prayed for something and it actually has happened. |
Again, you people and believing hearsay.
| quote: | Originally posted by Aiwendil
Medical advances are visible and provable things that happen very often, things that people see the effects of every day, sweet cheeks. Unlike the creation of mankind. So that analogy is false, and in fact your entire "rant" there is at least one logical fallacy. |
But honey pie, my analogy in fact is not false, because I was merely pointing out that we trust these scientists with our lives based on the fact that we see medical advances on a daily basis, why wouldn't we be believing what they believe to be true about the creation of mankind based of the information they have from all of the test and studies they have done? Why would one be apt to believe something that doesn't exist rather than believe something that actually has verifiable data connected with it?
Phew that first sentence is a run on if there ever was one.
| quote: | Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk::
well, according to the doctrine, our moral code is currupt. |
Ours, or yours? I happen to think that my moral code is pretty good, actually.
| quote: | | some people dont think lying is wrong. |
The same people, for example, that claim themselves to be Atheist and then later confess that they actually truly do believe in God no matter what they say in the back of their minds? That could be considered lying, could it not? You're stating something, insisting something is true, and then later admit that in fact it is not. I guess that Bible didn't teach you anything, did it?
| quote: | | people are murdered everyday. |
Yes, if your God exists, why are there people being murdered? Are you saying the only way for people not to be murdered is to follow the Bible? I don't think so! I would be willing to bet money that there are a LOT of people that are in prison for murdering people that consider themselves DEVOUT Christians.
| quote: | | somebody robs somebody everyday. |
Yes, if everyone just followed the Bible, this would NEVER happen. It's a shame that I actually know someone who goes to church 3 times a day (no exaggeration or sarcasm here) and yet, she steals like there is no tomorrow. Amazing, isn't it? She'll preach to you up down left and right about how Jesus should be your main force in life, and then steal from you.
| quote: | | many people think there is nothing wrong with pre-marital sex. |
And is there? To have a healthy relationship, you need to have a healthy sex life. It's a bit late to tie the knot and then realize that you two are not compatible in bed. That leads to things such as affairs and divorce. Better to find out before you get married, isn't it? I'm not condoning whoring yourself out, but if two people are in a relationship, and are old/mature enough for the consequences of their actions, I see no wrong in taking the relationship to the next step.
| quote: | | all these are against what is taught in the bible, and so to a christian, the bible is the only perfect moral code to live by. |
Right. Again, has the Bible been around for all of existance? No. And since the Bible's release, have any of these things stopped? No. Perfect moral code? Right, that's why Priests are molesting children. That's why there are Christians in jail. A perfect moral code... one that surpresses individuality and civil rights because of sexual orientation.
| quote: | Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk::
what is different from other philosophers and teachers about jesus is..
1) he claimed to be the son of god, therefore making him equal to god. |
Aha! You said it yourself!!! He claimed to be the son of God. That does not MAKE him the son of God. I can claim that I am Johnny Depps wife, but that does not make it so.
| quote: | | 2) he performed numorous miracles and many divine happenings. |
All handed down stories and hearsay. There is still no proof of any of that.
| quote: | | 3) he rose from the dead |
Again, where is the proof?
| quote: | | 4) his entire life was written out hundreds of years before he was even born. |
Man, I love how Christians are so damn gullible! WHERE IS THE PROOF?
| quote: | | 5) he fulfilled all of the dozens of prophecies written hundreds of years before jesus's time. |
Okay. Let's go over a few things. If Jesus was really the son of God, that would have made him the messiah, right? The Messiah was supposed to bring a better life to his people, right? So answer me, oh wise one, if Jesus was the son of God, why were there crusades led in his name, slaughtering thousands of innocent people and robbing poor people blind? Did he really do anything for his people? No.
| quote: | 6) what he taught is still applicable even after 2000 years.
this is why so many people believe in jesus. |
Right, so someone saying "Please don't kill other people" makes him the son of God. If he's the son of God, why are there so many years of his life missing from the Bible? What was he doing those years? He taught nothing different from what Krishna taught but I don't see anywhere in any text Krishna claiming to be the son of God?
Right, I'm going to go lay down again now. |
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| Omega_Blue |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Yes, I understand the tenants of the bible perfectly well. The only way one can acheive salvation is through god and jesus blah blah blah blah. What I am asking you, is why would a just god be so preoccupied, no obsessed, with prioritizing the worship of him and his son over any other consideration, even if that person practices the behaviour of what God and Jesus explicitly preach? What is the point of any moralistic statements from the bible if it is all negated by the lack of mere belief in God/Jesus? How is that just?
So allow me to ask you something, as a non-Christian, how do you feel about going to hell? |
Hurray! a thread about christianity!!!
i agree occrider.. but
God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent. according to the bible he is the ultimate supreme being that can make anything possible. So... a christian would say, God doesn't have to be just, because God is all powerful. Just because it's not fair to us doesn't mean that God can't do it. Just because he pretty much defines our moral values, doesn't necessarily mean he has to follow his own guidelines. how about this.
In the bible, it says that our lives are pre-determined. God knows what is going to happen to us before it happens. Therefore he knows whether we are going to hell or heaven. Why would God pre-determine us to go to Hell, when he wants us to come to heaven? We have no choice in what we do in our lives because he has already made the decisions for us. SO!!!!
How can we be held morally responsible for our actions??? According to God, any sin that we commit has already been planned out by HIM. why should we be punished for an action that we were "forced" to commit?
and what about hell? if the reason i believe in God is because I'm afraid of going to hell, or afraid of nothingness in the afterlife, do i REALLY have faith? or am i just covering my ass in case i get cast in the lake of fire?
GOD is good.
GOD's commands are good.
GOD is what GOD commands.
does this make sense? can this make sense? |
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| Omega_Blue |
| quote: | Originally posted by squirrelly
Okay let me start by apologizing for being MIA this week, physical therapy was a bit more intense than I had imagined it would be, so I was bed ridden the past few days. But now thanks to pain killers, I am more than able (if not a bit fuzzy headed however) to respond to some of these posts. Apologies in advance if some of them seem a little spacey.
Right, I don't really remember what we were arguing about here, but if the misunderstanding is cleared, no need to continue on with the argument, right? :)
I wasn't attempting to do that, I was merely attempting to applaud myself for at least attempting to make myself clear without really being too sure on the terminology that I was using.
Actually for once I don't think I was trying to offend anyone.
Hmm, I do believe you may have just taken things the wrong way, which is understandable, and happens often on internet forums. No hard feelings though, this is a debate, and if we all agreed then it would be quite boring.
Actually most parents (providing that they are fit) would be able to answer those questions for you as well. And people lived long before the Bible existed, do you honestly think there was never anyone around to tell them the difference between right or wrong? I think not.
I wonder if Priests do that just before molesting little boys. Does it say anywhere in the Bible whether or not that is wrong?
Has been proven true? Links please for your information. I would loooooooove some verifiable proof that Jesus was indeed the son of God. And it's been proven true that he rose from the dead? I don't think so. Has it been proven true that he was the son of God? I don't think so, we can't even prove that there really is a God, how can we prove he has a son? It's all hearsay.
Right, so there was a brightly lit star/planet above a city and we are able to prove that, so it automatically means that an entire religion can be deemed true? I think not.
Again, you people and believing hearsay.
But honey pie, my analogy in fact is not false, because I was merely pointing out that we trust these scientists with our lives based on the fact that we see medical advances on a daily basis, why wouldn't we be believing what they believe to be true about the creation of mankind based of the information they have from all of the test and studies they have done? Why would one be apt to believe something that doesn't exist rather than believe something that actually has verifiable data connected with it?
Phew that first sentence is a run on if there ever was one.
Ours, or yours? I happen to think that my moral code is pretty good, actually.
The same people, for example, that claim themselves to be Atheist and then later confess that they actually truly do believe in God no matter what they say in the back of their minds? That could be considered lying, could it not? You're stating something, insisting something is true, and then later admit that in fact it is not. I guess that Bible didn't teach you anything, did it?
Yes, if your God exists, why are there people being murdered? Are you saying the only way for people not to be murdered is to follow the Bible? I don't think so! I would be willing to bet money that there are a LOT of people that are in prison for murdering people that consider themselves DEVOUT Christians.
Yes, if everyone just followed the Bible, this would NEVER happen. It's a shame that I actually know someone who goes to church 3 times a day (no exaggeration or sarcasm here) and yet, she steals like there is no tomorrow. Amazing, isn't it? She'll preach to you up down left and right about how Jesus should be your main force in life, and then steal from you.
And is there? To have a healthy relationship, you need to have a healthy sex life. It's a bit late to tie the knot and then realize that you two are not compatible in bed. That leads to things such as affairs and divorce. Better to find out before you get married, isn't it? I'm not condoning whoring yourself out, but if two people are in a relationship, and are old/mature enough for the consequences of their actions, I see no wrong in taking the relationship to the next step.
Right. Again, has the Bible been around for all of existance? No. And since the Bible's release, have any of these things stopped? No. Perfect moral code? Right, that's why Priests are molesting children. That's why there are Christians in jail. A perfect moral code... one that surpresses individuality and civil rights because of sexual orientation.
Aha! You said it yourself!!! He claimed to be the son of God. That does not MAKE him the son of God. I can claim that I am Johnny Depps wife, but that does not make it so.
All handed down stories and hearsay. There is still no proof of any of that.
Again, where is the proof?
Man, I love how Christians are so damn gullible! WHERE IS THE PROOF?
Okay. Let's go over a few things. If Jesus was really the son of God, that would have made him the messiah, right? The Messiah was supposed to bring a better life to his people, right? So answer me, oh wise one, if Jesus was the son of God, why were there crusades led in his name, slaughtering thousands of innocent people and robbing poor people blind? Did he really do anything for his people? No.
Right, so someone saying "Please don't kill other people" makes him the son of God. If he's the son of God, why are there so many years of his life missing from the Bible? What was he doing those years? He taught nothing different from what Krishna taught but I don't see anywhere in any text Krishna claiming to be the son of God?
Right, I'm going to go lay down again now. |
all a christian has to do to answer all of your responses that questions God's actions is this- God lets happen for a reason. It may be unjust, it may be completely opposite of his teachings, it may not even make sense- but since God is all powerful, who can question his actions? God does the things he does because he's God, and we can't even begin to comprehend with our puny little human minds why he does the things he does. maybe he doesn't even have a reason. |
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| tiesto14 |
my sig says it all:D
Religion easily has the greatest bull story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you. - George Carlin |
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