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yom kipur (pg. 2)
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
the only good thing religion has given us is public holidays.
as for various days that youre meant to fast, or avoid various activities. sorry, i just dont get it. |
Did it stop you from ing your neighbor's wife?:toothless |
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| Lepanto |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
Did it stop you from ing your neighbor's wife?:toothless |
lol i guess for him, raping, killing, stealing, etc is all in good fun :) |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| ^^ i feel sorry for people that require religion to tell them acceptable limits of behaviour :rolleyes: |
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| Lepanto |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
^^ i feel sorry for people that require religion to tell them acceptable limits of behaviour :rolleyes: |
really? what else tells you limits of behavior, you tool?
all the laws of western CIVILIZATION come from religious laws. if not please explain where do morals come from?
also this : :rolleyes: holds no weight in an argument, 'cept belittles YOU :)
edit: | quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
Did it stop you from ing your neighbor's wife?:toothless |
what do you think that meant? |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lepanto
really? what else tells you limits of behavior, you tool?
all the laws of western CIVILIZATION come from religious laws. if not please explain where do morals come from?
also this : :rolleyes: holds no weight in an argument, 'cept belittles YOU :) |
well firstly, i never stated that laws didnt evolve from religion. but the fact that the human race just happened to conceive of religion and religious law doesnt mean that it *had* to be that way. it was just an easier way of law becoming universal (and when i say universal i mean universal to the state/region/tribe that a person was a part of) since way back when there were plenty of stupid ppl that couldnt even conceive of the idea that god(s) probably didnt exist.
now, since the enlightenment punched holes right thru heaps of religiously-inspired dogma, id say that instead of looking to the good book for how things should be, how about some simple rational thought processes to help one out, yeah?
morals may well have *come* from religious experience, but again, thats largely irrelevant. thats how it happened to occur, but in a theoretical sense there would have been nothing preventing laws and systems of social organisation from evolving thru thought rather than belief (aside from the fact it was a lot easier to have a bunch of brain-washed ppl than it is to have a bunch of intelligent thinkers).
we dont need to pay homage to religion just coz it happened to come before rational thought. |
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| Lepanto |
i'm yet to see your post make sense, buddy.
who said we should praise or pay any attention to religion just cause laws came from it? LMAO.
go to school, saying that religion contributed nothing to our society is like saying drugs contributed nothing to music.
keep thinking you're all smart and enlightened and anti-comfomity, but in fact you're no diff the next "sheep". |
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| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
This is a misconception. It is not illegal, people simply do not do it. Afterall incase of emergency you damn well are gonna drive. In America it is "forgiven" that you must drive to temple and back as everything here is so frekin far. |
there are cars driving around tonight actually - police cars.
based on my memory of last year, i remember taking a long walk on a main street, and i saw a civilian car driving by... it was pulled over by a police car and detained for a very long time (as far as i know), when i got back to that very same spot on my walk back, the car was still there, the driver was still around, and the policemen were still there.
the fact that something is illegal does not completely porhibit me from doing it, it just means i'll face consequences, so yes, i can drive now, but i will most likely be arrested or detained.
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Plus I don't see what you are complaining about. It is the one day of the year when you are "forced" to go out of your house or do something productive. And there are no cars to run you over or smog you to death as you play on the street. |
my productivity isn't improved today, quite the opposite actually, as i can't work on my speakers.
the TV i dont really care about, i only turn it on for a few minutes a day while eating, the fact i have nothing to watch on it won't 'force' me to go outside.
i'm not complaining that i'm bored, or anything like that. i'm complaining about a lack of freedom, i'm pondering the necessity of these customs and laws that 'stop' me from doing what i want, and so far no one has presented good reasons for their presence (though you havent really tried).
the most important point to me in this thread has seemingly gone unnoticed so far, iirc, it's in the second post here:
if you can't fast and/or observe the holiday in the face of temptation - you can't fast and/or observe the holiday period |
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| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lepanto
go to school, saying that religion contributed nothing to our society is like saying drugs contributed nothing to music.
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i think you should learn to read, and maybe to deduce the correct conclusions from what you read. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
lepanto, im not sure what youre not getting. all im saying is there is no reason to look to a book, leader, religious dogma etc to formulate concepts such as right and wrong.
oh yes, lets just reel off a nice long list of religions \'contributions\' shall we? ;) throughtout history it seems its those that are the firmest believers that commit the worst crimes.
i dont think im all smart nor enlightened. but i do know that adhering 100% to a particular train of thought or constantly using religion as a reference point for belief systems or behaviour is pretty damn problematic. life isnt all about god, and has certainly changed a lot since the dogma was written ;)
i dont care if im a sheep. id like lots more ppl to think the way i do. then perhaps in a million years the human race will have been able to evolve to a point whereby this archaic belief system can finally be put to rest. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Psy-T
i'm not complaining that i'm bored, or anything like that. i'm complaining about a lack of freedom, i'm pondering the necessity of these customs and laws that 'stop' me from doing what i want, and so far no one has presented good reasons for their presence (though you havent really tried) |
exactly right. does anyone here really believe that a perfect being would ever want you to adhere to such ridiculous practices?
nothing should ever exist due only to its traditional heritage. thats the way societies become stagnant. |
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| NebulousQ |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
oh yes, lets just reel off a nice long list of religions 'contributions' shall we? ;) |
You, my friend, seem to know nothing of history. Let me list three important contributions to society by religion right off the top of my head (and then find sources).
1)Irish monks saved western civilization
| quote: | | Not only did Irish monks and scribes maintain the very record of Western civilization -- copying manuscripts of Greek and Latin writers, both pagan and Christian, while libraries and learning on the continent were forever lost -- they brought their uniquely Irish world-view to the task. |
Source: http://www.globecorner.com/t/t35/17759.php
Buy this book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...779255?v=glance
2) Printing Press both in China and in Europe.
| quote: | | The original method of printing was block printing, pressing sheets of paper into individually carved wooden blocks (xylography). It is believed that block printing originated in China and the earliest known printed text, the Diamond Sutra (a Buddhist scripture), was printed in China in 868 A.D. The technique was also known in Europe, where it was mostly used to print Bibles. |
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing_press
| quote: | | In 1455 Gutenberg demonstrated the power of the printing press by selling copies of a two-volume Bible (Biblia Sacra) for 300 florins each. This was the equivalent of approximately three years' wages for an average clerk, but it was significantly cheaper than a handwritten Bible, which could take a single monk 20 years to transcribe. ... However, it is still notable in that the print technology that produced the Gutenberg Bible marks the beginning of a cultural revolution unlike any that followed the development of print culture in Asia. |
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Gutenberg
3) All the first higher institutions of learning in this country (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Notre Dame, etc) started out either as seminaries or religious institions.
| quote: | | Although many of its early graduates became ministers in Puritan congregations throughout New England, the College was never formally affiliated with a specific religious denomination. An early brochure, published in 1643, justified the College's existence: "To advance Learning and perpetuate it to Posterity; dreading to leave an illiterate Ministry to the Churches." |
Source: http://www.news.harvard.edu/guide/intro/
| quote: | In 1701, a group of founding ministers of Yale met in Branford and is reported to have brought a number of books and, laying them on the table, to have said, "I give these books for the founding of a College in this Colony."
In October 1701, the Connecticut Colony Genera Assembly passed "An Act of Liberty to Erect a Collegiate School, wherein Youth may be instructed in the Arts & Sciences who through the Blessing of Almighty God may be fitted for Publick Employment both in Church and Civil State." |
Source: http://www.yale.edu/opa/newsr/01-06-18-03.all.html
To stay on topic of the thread:
| quote: | Originally posted by Psy-T
the most important point to me in this thread has seemingly gone unnoticed so far, iirc, it's in the second post here:
if you can't fast and/or observe the holiday in the face of temptation - you can't fast and/or observe the holiday period |
While in some ways true, at the core this statement is false. If some one cannot resist temptation, that person can always try to aviod the source of the temptaion. No one is perfect and condemning someone for a weakness that they are fighting in whatever way they can is mean. I do not know if the law of your land prevents the things you are talking about, but by cutting off the source temptation that may cause another to stumble is quite courteous and admirable.
Also there are different levels of temptation. For example, I have chosen abstinence till I am married. While I am able to stand firm in this decision in my daily life (so far), if I was to come home to my apartment and find a beautiful woman (say Brooke Burke) naked and in my bed, opening her legs and saying "take me" I do believe I would succumb to temptation right there(Im a weak dude, what can I say?). |
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| shaolin_Z |
Good post NebulousQ.
@ pkcRAISTLIN: You're kind of contradicting yourself there by admitting the importance of religion and how it's defined (to a large extent) morality and then law, and then saying that's it's of little or no relevance:
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
all im saying is there is no reason to look to a book, leader, religious dogma etc to formulate concepts such as right and wrong. |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
morals may well have *come* from religious experience, but again, thats largely irrelevant. |
Simple minded argument along these lines really annoy me:
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
oh yes, lets just reel off a nice long list of religions 'contributions' shall we? throughtout history it seems its those that are the firmest believers that commit the worst crimes. |
I, like most other people, used to think so too, but the more I learned and observed, the more I realized that statements such as this were very misleading and didn't present the entire picture. Any ideology, religious or political, has always been used by those in power to get the masses to go along with their agenda, which usually involves war, destruction, chaos and many other horrible things. It's unfair and innacurate to say that religion is the cause of all/most wars. This is something most people tell themselves to feel better about themselves/their ancestors/as individuals/as a people, by putting the blame on something else rather than taking responsibility of this own actions. Some of the most destructive wars claming far more many lives than traditional warfare have taken place in the last half century or so and didn't really have anything to do with religion.
To sum up, people, and not religion/political ideologies/economic doctrines, are the ones really responsible all the war and destruction the human race has gone through. Religion/political ideologies are a tools used by the elites to convince the masses to go along with their agenda/to rationalize it. |
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