|
yom kipur (pg. 5)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Psy-T
i dont need goverment enforced rules that serve no rational purpose, i rather have the choice. |
there are no rules, it is "spontaneous order" - an economic term that describes that althought there are no rules forcing milk to be at the groccery store when you come there, but there always is anyway...
likewise there are no laws about observing Yom Kipur, people just do because it is in their self-interest. |
|
|
| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by Izzy
there are no rules, it is "spontaneous order" - an economic term that describes that althought there are no rules forcing milk to be at the groccery store when you come there, but there always is anyway...
likewise there are no laws about observing Yom Kipur, people just do because it is in their self-interest. |
if so, then as in many other instances, society has to redefine and re evaluate it's self interest. |
|
|
| NebulousQ |
| quote: | Originally posted by Psy-T
the most important point to me in this thread has seemingly gone unnoticed so far, iirc, it's in the second post here:
if you can't fast and/or observe the holiday in the face of temptation - you can't fast and/or observe the holiday period |
| quote: | Originally posted by NebulousQ
While in some ways true, at the core this statement is false. If some one cannot resist temptation, that person can always try to aviod the source of the temptaion. No one is perfect and condemning someone for a weakness that they are fighting in whatever way they can is mean. I do not know if the law of your land prevents the things you are talking about, but by cutting off the source temptation that may cause another to stumble is quite courteous and admirable.
Also there are different levels of temptation. For example, I have chosen abstinence till I am married. While I am able to stand firm in this decision in my daily life (so far), if I was to come home to my apartment and find a beautiful woman (say Brooke Burke) naked and in my bed, opening her legs and saying "take me" I do believe I would succumb to temptation right there(Im a weak dude, what can I say?). |
|
|
|
| TranceGiant |
| quote: | Originally posted by Psy-T
if so, then as in many other instances, society has to redefine and re evaluate it's self interest. |
Day kvar im ha philosophya be grsuh hazot.... |
|
|
| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by NebulousQ
While in some ways true, at the core this statement is false. If some one cannot resist temptation, that person can always try to aviod the source of the temptaion. No one is perfect and condemning someone for a weakness that they are fighting in whatever way they can is mean. I do not know if the law of your land prevents the things you are talking about, but by cutting off the source temptation that may cause another to stumble is quite courteous and admirable. |
if someone can not resist temptation, the least he can do is try, not just cut off his options. by allowing him to cut off the options, and even moreso enforce it happening, we're not helping him. where is the challenege, or the atonement in not doing something because it's impossible to do it?
| quote: | Originally posted by NebulousQ
Also there are different levels of temptation. For example, I have chosen abstinence till I am married. While I am able to stand firm in this decision in my daily life (so far), if I was to come home to my apartment and find a beautiful woman (say Brooke Burke) naked and in my bed, opening her legs and saying "take me" I do believe I would succumb to temptation right there(Im a weak dude, what can I say?). |
that's almost beyond temptation it seems, i dont think it's comparable with hearing cars driving, or having the possibility to watch television. a better analogy would be that there are prostitutes around the city.
not to mention how unlikely it is especially in comparison to the mundane things we take for granted. |
|
|
| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by TranceGiant
Day kvar im ha philosophya be grsuh hazot.... |
care to elaborate? preferably in a language everyone can comment? |
|
|
| DrUg_Tit0 |
Ah love people quoting themselves...
Anyway, I don't see what's the big deal. You can watch cable tv and if you can drive a car, although most people don't, I really don't see why you think you're being opressed or something. A society can't really live by your standards. I mean, I'm not religious or anything, but I like having christmass around. There's all this present and stupid festivities noone really believes in, but it's all kinda fun in a way. |
|
|
| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
I really don't see why you think you're being opressed or something. |
i dont think i'm being opressed (at least not according to the defintion at dictionary.com), but i have less freedom on this day, far less, which i do have a problem with.
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
A society can't really live by your standards. |
why not? (not that i'm asking they live by my standard, just re evaluate their own) |
|
|
| TranceGiant |
All I'm saying is that you sometimes simply have to accept certain rules, manners, customs, habits, unwritten law. If you wanna philosophy about society, then realize that society is always developing rules based on general consensus of a certain time. Today, in Israel, it is the general consensus that public live stands still for one day in a year. It's not that the state halts all activities in order to eliminate all temptations. The state itself is participating in this "break".
If xou as an individual don't wanna be part of it, but keep living your normal life then that's a problem you'll have to live with for 24 hours. In other countries gay people would like to marry each other but can't - as the general consensus is against that idea. |
|
|
| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by TranceGiant
All I'm saying is that you sometimes simply have to accept certain rules, manners, customs, habits, unwritten law. If you wanna philosophy about society, then realize that society is always developing rules based on general consensus of a certain time. Today, in Israel, it is the general consensus that public live stands still for one day in a year. It's not that the state halts all activities in order to eliminate all temptations. The state itself is participating in this "break".
If xou as an individual don't wanna be part of it, but keep living your normal life then that's a problem you'll have to live with for 24 hours. In other countries gay people would like to marry each other but can't - as the general consensus is against that idea. |
without discussion such as these (just at a far greater level), how will consensus ever change? |
|
|
| TranceGiant |
I think in a plurilaristic democracy as in Israel speaking out your thoughts is no problem. If you're relaly concerned about your individual freedom start a campaign or whatever. No one will stop you, and if you find enough supporters you might reolutionize Israely Yom Kippur habits.
As I highlighted by writing "of a certain time", a consensus is something dynamic with the option for change. Just a few centuries ago it was general consensus that women should stay at home and cook. |
|
|
| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Psy-T
i dont think i'm being opressed (at least not according to the defintion at dictionary.com), but i have less freedom on this day, far less, which i do have a problem with.[quote]
But what exactly is that they're taking away from you? If it isn't illegal to drive a car, and if you can watch TV (or at least sattelite), and if all emergency services are at your disposal, the only thing they're taking away from you is non-vital segments of the society, meaning that you can't go to a grocery store that day.
[quote]why not? (not that i'm asking they live by my standard, just re evaluate their own) |
Well, if your standards are the same as those of most of the society, then yes, they can live by your standards. But if their standards were the same as yours, they wouldn't celbrate yom kipur in the first place. Since they obviously do, as most israelis on this board, I'd say the majority is not really with you and therefore you won't be able to change that.
Gee, I've never seen a person complain about a country because they have a national holiday. Most people like holidays because they can slack off that day. |
|
|
|
|
