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yom kipur (pg. 4)
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lepanto
not really, most of the cases in the crusades are attributed to the Templars. |
Oh and templars were what, atheists?
| quote: | | Aztecs and morals? right lol. |
Well, in a way you could say they had laws and morals, and it's also interesting to note that the christian culture does condone sacrifice, although undoubtedly in a lesser extent than that of the aztecs.
Ultimately religion was merely a sort of obfuscation and mystification of natural moral laws inherent in most human beings. You could say that most current laws did come from religion, but that's mostly a trivial contraction of the actual process.
Now nebulous, about your points. Irish monks did not save the western civilization. The libraries of Rome did exist at the time, and Irish monks were just an offshot of the catholic church whose influence, although culturally significant, has only been felt around the lands inhabited by celts. Now take a look at the library of Alexandria and who was it that burned down the greatest library in the history of mankind. Oh dear, was it the christians?
The printing press was in no way a result of religion, but merely a great discovery that has been used to spread religion around.
As for the learning institutions, yes, they were originally started as religious ones, but they only started doing some good when they switched to other areas of research. In other words, religion wasn't responsible for any of the things you attributed it. |
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| Goashem |
| suggestion: make a new thread discussing morals. this is a very interesting topic and id (as well as others) love to read the arguements in a more organized manner. |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lepanto
Oh so Native American tribes had the same beliefs like the Westerners? They didn't believe in mass sacrifice of human beings or anything. Neither did the pagan Vikings who killed women and children and raped everything in their sight, only to eventually settle down after converting to Christianity. good point ;) |
The three intelligent people posting before me have pretty much shot your posts down, and I induce from the argumentative quality of your previous posts in other threads that I'm probably wasting time by trying to reason with you, but here goes:
You didn't answer my question, but from your Aztec point I think that you would have answered (1) - that God came down and handed the moral code to humans. As occrider pointed out, your counter-example using the Aztecs hardly rendered my point invalid, as there were several tribes that adhered to nearly identical moral codes even if they did not have the same deity. Furthermore, there is a core of moral values that seems to be shared by any society - even the Aztecs. Laws that are simply necessary for a society to exist, e.g. the respect for other peoples property and lives.
Now, on an entirely different matter, I think that you're kinda hard on the Aztecs. I wrote a small essay on them some ten years ago, and even if my mind is kinda clouded on the exact details, I do seem to remember a few things: Their sacrifices were not performed just for kicks. To them the sun was essential for continued life, and they believed that sacrifices were necessary to keep it appearing every day. The victims were all either non-Aztecs caught during wars/raids or volunteers. This disrespect for people not of your tribe is pretty much universal for people of that time (e.g. when Hernan Cortes invaded, he sure did show how much more compassionate Christians are).
Furthermore, victims were drugged prior to the killing, which speaks of compassion on behalf of the killers. Furthermore, they had a very modern view to slavery, with slaves being treated much better than were the case elsewhere in the world (including later in the US).
A similar tale could be told about the Vikings: They had plenty of morals - just no compassion for non-Vikings.
Finally, if you meant the Aztecs, why did you say "Native Americans"? That term includes a hell of a lot of other people than Aztecs. |
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| TranceGiant |
Fasting finished.
A huge Schnitzel as the perfect closer.
I'm dead tired now :o
Psy-T, your neverending criticism of your home country is repetitive and redundant. I think we all got your point. You should really move and then either 1, realize Israel wasn't so bad after all and that its existence does have a "point" (although there surely are things to criticize her and there - implementation wise) or 2, live happily ever after in a foreign country and start a nerw life.
chatima tova |
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| NebulousQ |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
Now nebulous, about your points. Irish monks did not save the western civilization. The libraries of Rome did exist at the time, and Irish monks were just an offshot of the catholic church whose influence, although culturally significant, has only been felt around the lands inhabited by celts. Now take a look at the library of Alexandria and who was it that burned down the greatest library in the history of mankind. Oh dear, was it the christians?
The printing press was in no way a result of religion, but merely a great discovery that has been used to spread religion around.
As for the learning institutions, yes, they were originally started as religious ones, but they only started doing some good when they switched to other areas of research. In other words, religion wasn't responsible for any of the things you attributed it. |
Before I begin I shall like to ask for sources, if anyone responds to my posts claiming facts and do not add sources I shall most likely not respond. I do not claim to know everything about history, and most likely much of what you say I will know little or nothing about. I do not take your word as law, I have never met you and know nothing about you. Much of what people say is merely opinion and this applies to all areas of life.
That being said I will address your points! I like to debate!
You said: | quote: | | Irish monks did not save the western civilization. The libraries of Rome did exist at the time |
The Irish "saving western civilization" was merely a title to a point, I am sorry if this caused confusion. I do not know whether or not they really did save civilization, but the point was that religion provided an environment and people to facilitate the recording of much information that helped bring Europe out of the Dark Ages. The libraries of Rome did exist, but realize that most were destroyed before most of the information in them could be recorded elsewhere or saved.
You also said:
| quote: | | Now take a look at the library of Alexandria and who was it that burned down the greatest library in the history of mankind. Oh dear, was it the christians? |
Remember much of what people say ais opinion and I have another opinion you read about what happened at Alexandria:
http://ehistory.osu.edu/world/artic...eView.cfm?AID=9
2)| quote: | | The printing press was in no way a result of religion, but merely a great discovery that has been used to spread religion around. |
Here I must admit that I made a very iffy conclusion from what little facts we have about the creators of the printing press in both Asia and in Europe. We do not know why the printing press's were invented, but we do know that the majority of the first documents off the press's were religious documents. Also: Wwe a have man, Johannes Gutenberg, whose life has been greatly influnced by religion, whether for good or bad, inventing the printing press and printing a Bible and Psalters at a loss. He could have chosen to print other literature rather than religous texts; he could raised the price of his printed texts to make more money, but we have no record of him doing so. Thus from these facts I have drawn the conclusion that the printing press's were invented for the purposes of religion. This conclusion though is only my opinion, and thus I concede this point.
3)| quote: | | As for the learning institutions, yes, they were originally started as religious ones, but they only started doing some good when they switched to other areas of research. |
The statement that they "only started doing some good when they swtiched to other areas of research." is entirely your opinion and I will not argue with you on that. BUT!! When they were founded they did have a liberal arts program not just a religous one(mostly)! AND!! Whether or not "they only started doing good" at a certian point does not matter since they would not have been there at all if they had not been founded.
Lastly,
| quote: | | In other words, religion wasn't responsible for any of the things you attributed it. |
This depends on how you define "responsible"; if you mean religion did not become personified and create/record/found these things itself, then you are absolutely correct. Yet religion was greatly influential in , somewhat inseperable from, and greatly aided all of these events. |
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| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by TranceGiant
Fasting finished.
A huge Schnitzel as the perfect closer.
I'm dead tired now :o
Psy-T, your neverending criticism of your home country is repetitive and redundant. I think we all got your point. You should really move and then either 1, realize Israel wasn't so bad after all and that its existence does have a "point" (although there surely are things to criticize her and there - implementation wise) or 2, live happily ever after in a foreign country and start a nerw life.
chatima tova |
i didnt open this thread to just have a rant though it may seem like i did from my posts here, i opened it to gain insight into other prespectives (which i didnt :().
moving to a different country is something i'm gonna do as soon as i can, but i'm not delluding myself that other countries won't have similiar unecessary customs.
this thread is specifically about yom kipur because i can relate to the consequences of it a lot more than i can to christmas (for example), and because it was happening at the time. my complaint is universal, and it seems like the 'atheists' in here understood that while the gonstics did not. |
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| Gmoney part II |
| Please check out my last post in the Israeli-Palestinian thread. Thank you. |
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| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by Gmoney part II
Please check out my last post in the Israeli-Palestinian thread. Thank you. |
what has it got to do with anything in this thread? :conf: |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Psy-T
moving to a different country is something i'm gonna do as soon as i can, but i'm not delluding myself that other countries won't have similiar unecessary customs. |
well, your choice of australia is a good one. we have easter & xmas, and thats it. and tbh its good to have some good ol time off :) id celebrate hitler's inauguration day if it meant i didnt have to go to work ;)
| quote: | Originally posted by Psy-T
what has it got to do with anything in this thread? |
exactly right. gmoney isnt particularly gifted in the grey matter department. his post in that thread didnt even have anything to do with that thread either. he's TAs PDD #1 irrational ranter at the minute. |
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| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by Psy-T
i'm not complaining that i'm bored, or anything like that. i'm complaining about a lack of freedom, i'm pondering the necessity of these customs and laws that 'stop' me from doing what i want, and so far no one has presented good reasons for their presence (though you havent really tried).
the most important point to me in this thread has seemingly gone unnoticed so far, iirc, it's in the second post here:
if you can't fast and/or observe the holiday in the face of temptation - you can't fast and/or observe the holiday period |
bump |
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| Flotser |
Psy-T!!
you look at Yom Kipur in a very negative way ...
its a very special day by religious means, but also for the not religious.
yom kipur realy makes me proud of being an israeli. i dont think any other country enjoys a day where all the streets are empty of cars!!
all the kids go to ride bikes. the older ones gather around in central spots and get the opportunity to meet all their freinds from high-school\neighbourhood that havn't seen for years. i think its also the day in which the synagogues are filled to maximum.
it will be a such a shame if this 1 day of year won't be respected and people will start driving cars. |
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| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by Flotser
Psy-T!!
you look at Yom Kipur in a very negative way ...
its a very special day by religious means, but also for the not religious.
yom kipur realy makes me proud of being an israeli. i dont think any other country enjoys a day where all the streets are empty of cars!!
all the kids go to ride bikes. the older ones gather around in central spots and get the opportunity to meet all their freinds from high-school\neighbourhood that havn't seen for years. i think its also the day in which the synagogues are filled to maximum.
it will be a such a shame if this 1 day of year won't be respected and people will start driving cars. |
i dont need goverment enforced rules that serve no rational purpose, i rather have the choice. |
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