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What is going on with trance (pg. 4)
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| Axolotyl |
| quote: | Originally posted by Derivative
i fail to see how any EBM or industrial has any connection to trance. music that is dark in tone has existed for centuries. millenia even. modern EBM has a fetishistic influence that runs parallel to the 'goth' scene and alot of goth rock kind of shares similarities in terms of the imagery and sounds used by EBM artists. chiasm is one of these.
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Front 242, Cabaret Voltaire, Juno Reactor and Front Line Assembly were pretty big influences to the early goa movement. It gets pretty hazy on details from what I can find, but there was definately a connection there between the two during that tme. It was more experimental/ambient in stlyle then, but it was from this psychedelic experimentation that the first goa tracks emerged.
You can even judge for yourself. If you listen to a lot of early EBM, theres a lot of reliance on arpeggios which is indicative of early trance, especially goa trance. Its also fairly bassline driven with melodies derived from the bassline... another similarity between EBM and goa. In a way, Future pop is the evolution on EBM and whiat particular technique does that wretched form of music abuse with much gusto? That right... supersaws. If you listen to a lot of Future Pop, you could be forgiven for thinking its a Rank 1 remix of some sort. Its hands in the air goth music.
The connection between EBM/Industrial and trance is still strong today. Take most Dark Soho, Disassocative, Freaking or Penta tracks and slow them down to 125 - 130 BPM and they will sound a lot like industrial/EBM. |
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| Derivative |
uhhhhh, i am lost for words...
cabaret voltaire...an influence on trance?! you are listening to the same cabaret voltaire i am yes? arpeggios existed before EBM and they are used before 1983 so that can go out the window.
future pop doesnt really have any supersaw type sound attached to it, stylistically. if you mean artists like vnv nation - thats easy. alot of early vnv makes heavy use of access virus trance/pluck presets (hence all the Virus Not Vocals jokes and photoshops about VNV). dark angel is all access virus presets. heck, alot of future pop artists use VA synth presets so there is probably some supersaw patches in there somewhere. but future pop didnt come to the fore until waaay after trance already existed.
proof of this? the jp-8000 and access virus had not even been invented in 1993. back then, trance was in full swing using 303s, 909s, (then) cheap analog gear like jupiters and junos etc. |
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| Pjotr G |
| a jupiter isn't and wasn't that cheap |
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| Derivative |
yea well, 'analogue' and 'cheap' is an oxymoron now anyway. but the point remains the same unless you want to be really pedantic.
trance pre dates virtual analogue synthesizers. fact. |
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| SaxxonPike |
In my opinion, Trance is a subcategory of Techno, which is a subcategory of Electronic. Electronic is the broad genre that contains all the music which is particularly synthetic-sounding (generated by non-accoustic means)
Trance is said to be more the brighter, melodic/harmonic side of techno.
But that's just what I think :) |
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| Axolotyl |
| quote: | Originally posted by Derivative
cabaret voltaire...an influence on trance?! you are listening to the same cabaret voltaire i am yes? arpeggios existed before EBM and they are used before 1983 so that can go out the window. |
Yes, they were an influence on early goa trance, as said by Goa Gil himself. You are clearly misataken that there is no link between EBM and trance. Perhaps not anthem epic trance, but certainly in early goa they were an influence among other similar bands.
| quote: | | groups like Front 242, Cabaret Voltaire, Tackhead, Yello, Portion Control, Chakk, Laser Cowboys,... There were so many good projects!!! There was so much great music!!! .... also stuff like Depeche Mode, New Order, etc., anything that had some good synth & drum machine parts, but we would cut out the singing, take the good parts, and put the tracks back together repeating the different instrumental parts in different sequences to make our own instrumental "Goa" mix that would fit for our party concept and what we were trying to say and do with the music. |
You can find the full INTERVIEW here.
| quote: | Originally posted by Derivative
future pop doesnt really have any supersaw type sound attached to it, stylistically. if you mean artists like vnv nation - thats easy. alot of early vnv makes heavy use of access virus trance/pluck presets (hence all the Virus Not Vocals jokes and photoshops about VNV). dark angel is all access virus presets. heck, alot of future pop artists use VA synth presets so there is probably some supersaw patches in there somewhere. but future pop didnt come to the fore until waaay after trance already existed. |
Its an evolution of EMB gothic into an uplifting anthem form of music, similar to the cheesed up powerhouse that trance has evolved into today. If you cant see the similarities in the giant saw like pads and leads, then fair enough, its a subjective thing and I can't really be bothered proving to you. However there are huge connections between psy and industrial, infact the entire russian psy movement is mainly aimed at taking psy back to its industrial roots. I encourace you to listen to Disassociative - Blockout on Acid Dance Rec if you dont believe me. Slow down the tracks to 125 BPM and tell me it doesnt sound like FLA.
| quote: | Originally posted by Derivative
proof of this? the jp-8000 and access virus had not even been invented in 1993. back then, trance was in full swing using 303s, 909s, (then) cheap analog gear like jupiters and junos etc. |
I never said that trance was dependant on the JP8000 or the Virus. Nothing of the sort actually. Of course trance has been around in various forms depending on how strictly you define trance, I'm sure it goes back to way before synthesisers were ever made. |
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| gr8ape |
| What surprises me is that there are few fans of infected mushroom here.......unless I am mistaken, but these guys are seriously sculpting the future of dancefloor music |
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| IDarkISwordI |
| quote: | Originally posted by gr8ape
What surprises me is that there are few fans of infected mushroom here.......unless I am mistaken, but these guys are seriously sculpting the future of dancefloor music |
+1
Hey. I havent heard anything recent from them but I heard they plan on making a big come back sometime soon (maybe its already happened :conf: ). The best song I have heard and probably will have ever heard will be Symphonatic by Infected Mushroom. Its a beautiful compostion that goes through so many wicked changes and its so freaking detailed that it is literally just fun to listen to. There are so many things in this track to hear and so many many different ways to interpret it while listening to it. In my books, the only comparable composer is BT and I'm sticking to that :).
Cheers,
Zac |
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| thoughtlessjex |
| quote: | | yea but its not goa. it was a relatively experimental track, it couldnt have a "cheesy" supersaw lead and a ferry bass. also the structure is not far from the uplifting / epic imo.. |
It's also not epic. Your point? Structure has nothing to do with it. Plenty of goa tracks have follow the intro-break-build-anthem-outro format. The difference is in the elements used. Listen to Astral Projection - Another World. This track has quite a breakdown, but the synths used, the expansive bassline, squelchy effects, all of them point to goa. Age of Love isn't goa, but it certainly shows that it has similar roots. |
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| Derivative |
| quote: | | Yes, they were an influence on early goa trance, as said by Goa Gil himself. You are clearly misataken that there is no link between EBM and trance. Perhaps not anthem epic trance, but certainly in early goa they were an influence among other similar bands. |
uhhhh. I learned guitar by playing smiths songs and used to be into industrial. so you could say they were instrumental in the development of my own music. can you hear the industrial and smiths element in my trance music? hell fu.cking no.
secondly, there is one big fu.cking hole in your logic here - cab vol were not always industrial. in fact, they went synth pop during the mid 80s and built a name for themselves as a synthpop act and one of the founders of early popular electronic music. When popular/electronic music producers cite cabaret voltaire, it is usually for this work or their very very early punk recordings like nag nag nag. Not their industrial work which is completely random. like most industrial to be fair.
There is no musical or literal connection between industrial and trance. if you actually bothered to listen to industrial music and find out what it actually is, you would find it runs completely separate from all structure in music. You can argue about the atmospheric and dark ambient side of industrial but ambient music from the likes of tangerine dream and eno played more of a formative role in the atmospheric, non musical side of trance. the term dark ambient did not even catch on until the late 90s and i never heard it before audiogalaxy.
citing front 242 as proof that trance has its roots in EBM just because goa gil listened to them in the late 80s is nonesensical dream logic.
pretty much everyone with an interest in electronic music at that period would have picked up front by front - it is a landmark electronic dance music album. and it aint industrial either. neither is anything kraftwerk ever wrote or any of the other influences goa gil cites.
psytrance has nothing to do with industrial - why? it is structured and musical.
somehow i think you are confusing EBM and industrial and seem to think that industrial is actually the type of music that front line assembly, fear factory and skinny puppy put out. deep hint - it isnt. |
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| Beyer |
Jesus Christ.. Some of you lads are packed with knowledge! :eyes: I learned alot from this thread.
Trance was different back in 99'00'01 for sure, but imo the tracks released today wipes the floor with most of the tracks back then. Some say that the "asot" sound is getting dull, and I gotta agree that there's alot of similar sounding tracks out there now. Even Signum had, as I would call it, a newbie sound compared to what he/they makes today. The ayla GODS taucher and tandu sounds embarrassingly pathetic with "Talla vs. Taucher - Together '99" now, for example.
Ttrance today is so dense and packed with sounds, due to the advancement of technology of course. And for me, that is crucial. I'm sure that in 10yrs trance will sound even more massive with 128bit depth, and so advanced surround panning we'll all be gasping for air.
In the end it's all personal taste I guess. |
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| Axolotyl |
| quote: | Originally posted by Derivative
uhhhh. I learned guitar by playing smiths songs and used to be into industrial. so you could say they were instrumental in the development of my own music. can you hear the industrial and smiths element in my trance music? hell fu.cking no.
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Interesting comparison, but I dont see how your guitar tutoring or production is indicative of the development of goa. lol.
| quote: | Originally posted by Derivative
There is no musical or literal connection between industrial and trance. if you actually bothered to listen to industrial music and find out what it actually is, you would find it runs completely separate from all structure in music. You can argue about the atmospheric and dark ambient side of industrial but ambient music from the likes of tangerine dream and eno played more of a formative role in the atmospheric, non musical side of trance. the term dark ambient did not even catch on until the late 90s and i never heard it before audiogalaxy.
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Actually you may be right. I think I got carried away and cited industrial as an influence rather than EBM. Allow me to backpedal gracefully and say that your right in that the distinction between EBM and Industrial was much greater back then than it is now, I should have been clearer about that. Early industrial was quite non-musical and experimental as you said. I was more trying to get to the similarities between some forms of psy and industrial these days.
| quote: | Originally posted by Derivative
citing front 242 as proof that trance has its roots in EBM just because goa gil listened to them in the late 80s is nonesensical dream logic.
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Actually I cited it as an influence. If re-editing tracks of a genre into something else isnt an influence on it, then I dont know what is. Besides, its a well known fact that Front 242 were a big influence on the development of the the goa sound. Gil, Juno and Mark Allen all cite them as major influences both musically and inspirationally. Does this make EBM an inluence of goa or just Front 242? Depends how much you weigh up the importance of Front 242 as being indicative of the EBM genre. Considering they coinced the term EBM, I would say its safe to say EBM was an early influence.
Like I said though, if you dont 'believe' what is general knowledge then I can't change your mind on the subject. Neither of us were there at the time I presume, so I guess it really is down to TA gods like yourself and Ishkur to set us mortals straight on the facts. ;) lol...
| quote: | Originally posted by Derivative
psytrance has nothing to do with industrial - why? it is structured and musical.
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You seem to have a fairly puritanical view of what industrial is. Theres plenty of industrial music that is structured and musical and I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. Listen to Freaking, Fungus Funk or Disassociative and you will find plenty of indication that psytrance has a lot to do with industrial or whatever term you use for the dancable industrial of today. (I'm assuming its EMB in your opinion)
| quote: | Originally posted by Derivative
somehow i think you are confusing EBM and industrial and seem to think that industrial is actually the type of music that front line assembly, fear factory and skinny puppy put out. deep hint - it isnt. |
I would most certainly classify those acts as industrial. Perhaps not in your book, but they are widely known as industrial acts to most people. To me, EBM is more along the lines of Icon of Coil, Assemblage 23, Colony 5.. etc... |
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