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Key Mixing? (pg. 4)
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Paulie
If you change the pitch of the track, the key will change, so more often than not knowing the key of the track at its original speed is useless. No? |
thats right. no.
theres a key change @ +/-6%. the tunes of mine that are very much slower/faster i just write the key that id play it in on the sleeve. thus a 12A becomes a 7A if its pitched @ around 6% (sorry, dont know the real names for the keys).
whats a tuning clash nyquist? |
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| Serp |
| who cares, just play that sounds good |
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| sLiCk_NiCk |
| quote: | Originally posted by DaveBegic
Nah, the only stud on these boards is Soups =) |
where is the love? |
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| aL_mAc |
| choons go with choons period! thats how you mix that is all.... |
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| **Xenon** |
Key-mixing is cool, but I only do it if I'm making a mix I'm going to record. I don't key all my records but when piecing together a thought out mix, I'll key the tracks I want to use.
But it definitely is more essential IMO to know which tracks go well together because key-mixing doesn't guarantee a good mix - far from it. Hence if I'm just mucking around, I don't bother with key-mixing, just seeing which tracks work. |
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| Philby |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nyquist_Theorem
(see Sasha, Digweed, Armin et al, 1991-2005)
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i don't think you have referenced this correctly. |
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| Nyquist_Theorem |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
whats a tuning clash nyquist? |
where the tonics of the two tracks are not 'in tune' in terms of actual tuning in cents, ie one is A (at A440) and the other is in say E, so they'd normally work, except that the E one is also pitched up 3% so that the E is a bit sharp and thus sour/out of tune.
if two records are 'in key' it means the tonics are melodically compatible, right? so if they're 'in tune' it means that the tonics are 'in tune' with each other (ie their tonics differ by multiples of 50 cents or thereabouts) - ie even if they're not in key and even if their tonics aren't harmonically compatible, at least the tonics could both be found in tune in a 12-semitone chromatic scale, ifyouknowwhatimean.
examples:
two records both Dm7A, one 127BPM the other 130BPM, you've got no key clash but you've got a tuning clash - not enough % to make a semitone but enough to be 'out'.
two records one Dm7A one Ebm2A both 127BPM, you've got a key clash (ie Dm and Ebm2A don't sound good together), but no tuning clash.
two records one Dm7A 127BPM the other Ebm2A 130BPM and you've got sourville city, both key clash and tuning clash. not pleasant to listen to.
so yer, tuning clash usually occurs when you're apart by say 3bpm, as regardless of what key the tunes are in they're out of tune.
that make sense paul?
for sure keymixing's not for everyone, but i do find it gives me the opportunity to try really fun things that i wouldn't be able to otherwise. i just got back from a venue (ballarat woo!) where i dropped two tracks - perry oneil's waveforce and dylan rhymes' salty (stereostar starstruck remix), right on top of each other for probably 80% of the duration of the tracks, and they made sweet sweet love in a way that seemed to work on the dancefloor. they're totally different tracks (one's progressive trance the other screaming diva commercial house) and there's no common production element that would ever bring me to try them together if i didn't know thier key/bpm, but as they were the same key and bpm, i thought 'gee lets give this a whirl', dropped one on top of the other, and the result was good enough that making a proper ableton-ised mashup is on this week's todo list. i for one would never have put those two records together in a million years, especially live to a full venue, if i didn't know they were going to work (i meant to just drop the waveforce melody in over the breakdown as a teaser, until i heard what i'd created and left it in and up).
which, like making up a breaks remix of ridgewalkers find on the fly by dropping it (admittedly not perfectly phrased) over a rocking prog-breaks hyper track at the last interview and having some dude come up to me in the booth saying 'whoah, where'd you get the chunky breaks remix of find?', is why keying my records works for me. :)
but yer, for sure its not for everyone. |
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| ONION |
I think pulling out records in your crate and jotting down the key of the track is quite retarded as one has already pointed out... keying makes all difference if its out of tune c0z of the BPM difference...
There are some records out there ( and to use my cousins saying ) "are born for each other"... Taking a mental note of which tracks are good with what is fine...
But there are some noobs out there pulling out their midi controllers / keyboards figuring out what each of the keys are... It takes away the skill of matching records by ear... If you have to rely on keying all your records to mix... youre retarded.
As stated earlier there are far more important things to be concerned about... Is the crowd blowing their load over the tracks youre playing? Are you playing tracks that have been caned to death? Is the set suited for the time slot youre playing in? etc etc etc |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
i love your productions onion so im gonna be as polite as i can ;)
| quote: | Originally posted by ONION
I think pulling out records in your crate and jotting down the key of the track is quite retarded as one has already pointed out... keying makes all difference if its out of tune c0z of the BPM difference... |
firstly, thats like the easiest thing to take into account. tunes that are in compatible keys will still be in key if theyre within 3% of each other, and you get a general idea of whats in a compatible bpm range
its no different to remembering :
| quote: | Originally posted by ONION
There are some records out there ( and to use my cousins saying ) "are born for each other"... Taking a mental note of which tracks are good with what is fine... |
| quote: | Originally posted by ONION
But there are some noobs out there pulling out their midi controllers / keyboards figuring out what each of the keys are... It takes away the skill of matching records by ear... If you have to rely on keying all your records to mix... youre retarded. |
so, youre in the middle of a gig, got some new tunes and you sit there and try tunes together for the first time?? how exactly does one "match records by ear" unless its at home and youre mucking around? sounds pretty much the same as keying your tracks to me. except keying them narrows down the hundreds of tunes that you have to choose from in your experimentation, which saves a lot of time. youre still doing "homework" to uncover whats gonna work well live. how is matching records by ear any more skilfull? you play them together, they go well or they dont, you remember how they went. oooooh, tricky.
| quote: | Originally posted by ONION
As stated earlier there are far more important things to be concerned about... Is the crowd blowing their load over the tracks youre playing? Are you playing tracks that have been caned to death? Is the set suited for the time slot youre playing in? etc etc etc |
and thats the other thing nobody seems to be getting. i didnt post a poll on whether playing good tunes is important to you did i? all those points are self explanatory. i was curious as to what djs ive actually seen spin think about harmonic mixing, since its come up a few times on auTA, and im a little kiddie always looking to learn ;)
different strokes obviously, but i certainly wouldnt be telling armin he's "retarded" coz he's got keys & bpms written on his tunes. im disappointed in you onion :p |
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| Light The Fuse |
I love onion and hes right.
how do u mix 2 new rekkids for the 1st time in the middle of a set? - by cueing in ur earphones of course (:
good dj's are meant to be people who have exceptional/trained ears, that can make a majority of people in a room dance to their music because of their ear - not their chart that they have hidden sticky taped to the back of their rekkid box. |
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| tathi |
| quote: | Nyquist_Theorem
Keymixing means knowing the keys of your songs, and considering the tonal relationship between them when deciding what tune to play and when (but not neccesarily prioritizing this relationship over the other important factors to consider when choosing your next tune). |
I agree with this. However I believe that there are many many more important factors and techniques that need to be considered before matching records up that are in key.
| quote: | | (see Sasha, Digweed, Armin et al, 1991-2005). |
I call shenanigans on that; when was the last time you heard Digweed play a melody? And it's sad to say but nowadays Armin probably key-mixes the majority of the time because it saves him from having to put any effort into discovering which tunes were "born for each other" :/
| quote: | | And don't even get me started on acapellas. I recall the first time a copy of Scrambler Free came into my home, and within ten minutes of getting it home I was able to drop the acapella of it over steve may's open day. No easy way to do that, and just too many possibilities to guess/brute force them, had i not taken the 30 seconds to key/bpm the Scrabler track when it arrived. |
Martin Luthar King acapellas over tech-trance FTW! Thanks for that head at Mo’s, Mr Bateman! :P
| quote: | JPL
good dj's are meant to be people who have exceptional/trained ears, that can make a majority of people in a room dance to their music because of their ear - not their chart that they have hidden sticky taped to the back of their rekkid box. |
"I think the perfect balance is when you look at the next track in your CD wallet or your records and I guess you're not really thinking and you instinctively know what to put on. Sometimes when you think too much when you're DJing you can start panicking and worry." - Desyn Masiello
ps. Grandpa Onion is a very wise man indeed, he has been listening to trance before most people on this forum were born. ;) |
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| ONION |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
i love your productions onion so im gonna be as polite as i can ;) |
Its great that you appreciate my music, nonetheless dont worry about sugar coating... ;)
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
firstly, thats like the easiest thing to take into account. tunes that are in compatible keys will still be in key if theyre within 3% of each other, and you get a general idea of whats in a compatible bpm range
its no different to remembering |
Theres a difference IF you NEED a guide to tell you what the key is...
Going solely by ear playing records in your bedroom and remembering that hey - these tracks work great together... compared to what some guys do and pull out a keyboard to find out the keys is totally different... youre not training your ears as a DJ if you do the latter... You may as well rock up with a laptop and Atomix Virtual DJ installed and play mp3s which VISUALLY shows you whether the beats are matched... the same way jotting down keys VISUALLY shows you they are in key....
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
how is matching records by ear any more skilfull? you play them together, they go well or they dont, you remember how they went. oooooh, tricky.
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Evidently it is tricky for those guys who need to jot down keys to pull a smooth mix... <-- these are the guys im referring to
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
and thats the other thing nobody seems to be getting. i didnt post a poll on whether playing good tunes is important to you did i? all those points are self explanatory. i was curious as to what djs ive actually seen spin think about harmonic mixing, since its come up a few times on auTA, and im a little kiddie always looking to learn ;) |
I think its great youre always looking to learn, nonetheless the point I made was that there were far more important things to consider...
| quote: |
different strokes obviously, but i certainly wouldnt be telling armin he's "retarded" coz he's got keys & bpms written on his tunes. im disappointed in you onion :p |
I wouldnt hesitate calling him retarded to his face if I thought he was retarded... |
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