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Leaked EU Secret Report Smacks Of Anti-Semitism (pg. 3)
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| Yoepus |
Critisim of Israel becomes anti-semetic only when that critism of those holding Israel to a higher moral standard than any other country.
Since forming a nation, it is very convient for many true anti-semites to hide behind a curtain of legitimate critism of critizing "israel but not the jews", when indeed, their bias against the jews is the cause of the critique and unfair appraisal.
A case could be made that the EU report is doing just that (although I won't) and therefore reeks of anti-semitism.
Now of course there is genuine room for critism in every conflict, every country, every policy, however, when the Jews are held to one standard with their country and the rest of the world is held to another... one can quesiton, why is that? |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by ronk
they presented it as if Israel one day wanted to seize East Jerusalem, without mentioning the reasons. as for "who attacked first" - Egypt was the one who asked the UN to leave the Israel-Egypt borders, transferred armed divisions to Sinai and signed cooperation agreements with the armies of Jordan, Iraq and Syria. and let's not forget that they blocked the Tiran straits, which Israel warned that such thing will be a casus belli (after Sinai War). |
So what you're saying is Israel attacked first and the article distorted history by suggesting otherwise. Good, glad we cleared that up
| quote: | you didn't understand the point, huh?
those so called palestinians were Egyptians, Jordanians etc., and they lived in Gaza strip under Egyptian control (a part of Egypt), and in the West Bank under Jordanian control (a part of Jordan). but when Israel conquered those areas, suddenly the poor little guys have no where to go. capiche? |
And the relevance of that is?
| quote: | | committed by Israel as a retaliation. if you want to prevent these attacks, go to the root of the problem. you don't ing blow yourself up along with innocents, even if you want East Jerusalem! sit, talk, negotiate. Israel is always willing to do so. |
What are the root causes?
| quote: | | you calling me racist? |
I get the impression you have a deep hatred of Europe, and are attempting to demonise it... |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by CHRles
Even though George Smiley and others raise some valid points, I'm going to have to side with ronk here. |
Any particular reason? |
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| CHRles |
You can't justify suicide bombing. Even if you understand the root cause, are you going to be able to sympathize with people who might blow up central train stations in London and Manchester?
The relevance of the people in Gaza and the West Bank to what Ronk says is that countries like Egypt and Jordan should have been responsible for them. They should have offered to take them in since they were/are essentially citizens of thoe countries. Perhaps they have never been citizens of Palestine to begin with...
Again, you raise a lot of points which makes one look at both sides and see how complicated the situation is. Israel is far from flawless, and has made many mistakes over the years. It's also one of the few countries in the region to have admitted to making mistakes if I'm not mistaken.
PS I LOVE Europe. I'm thinking of maybe heading out to Spain and Portugal in the coming months, or the Scandinavian counties (Denmark, Sweden, and Norway). But hey, I'm open to any and all other suggestions in Europe if you or others got any.
My favorite cities in Europe are Amsterdam and Geneva - people in Amsterdam are extremely friendly, liberal, very educated, the city itself is easy to navigate around and has a lot to offer. Geneva is full of hihgh culture, a gorgeous backdrop scenary, and full of people with the best of intentions when it comes to global politics. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by CHRles
You can't justify suicide bombing. |
Who is justifying suicide bombing? :mad:
| quote: | | Even if you understand the root cause, are you going to be able to sympathize with people who might blow up central train stations in London and Manchester? |
I do not sympathise with anyone who deliberately takes innocent life and knows where you got that idea from? :mad:
| quote: | | The relevance of the people in Gaza and the West Bank to what Ronk says is that countries like Egypt and Jordan should have been responsible for them. They should have offered to take them in since they were/are essentially citizens of thoe countries. Perhaps they have never been citizens of Palestine to begin with... |
The Arab states want the Palestinians about as much as I want a ten foot dick up my arse. Which is not at all. But either way, what are you saying? That Israel should give Gaza and the West Bank back to Egypt and Jordan?
| quote: | | Again, you raise a lot of points which makes one look at both sides and see how complicated the situation is. Israel is far from flawless, and has made many mistakes over the years. It's also one of the few countries in the region to have admitted to making mistakes if I'm not mistaken. |
The question is not over "mistakes" but deliberate actions.
| quote: | PS I LOVE Europe. I'm thinking of maybe heading out to Spain and Portugal in the coming months, or the Scandinavian counties (Denmark, Sweden, and Norway). But hey, I'm open to any and all other suggestions in Europe if you or others got any.
My favorite cities in Europe are Amsterdam and Geneva - people in Amsterdam are extremely friendly, liberal, very educated, the city itself is easy to navigate around and has a lot to offer. Geneva is full of hihgh culture, a gorgeous backdrop scenary, and full of people with the best of intentions when it comes to global politics. |
Gotta love the things you like about Amsterdam and Geneva after reading what you write in here!!!
:eyes: |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Critisim of Israel becomes anti-semetic only when that critism of those holding Israel to a higher moral standard than any other country.
Since forming a nation, it is very convient for many true anti-semites to hide behind a curtain of legitimate critism of critizing "israel but not the jews", when indeed, their bias against the jews is the cause of the critique and unfair appraisal.
A case could be made that the EU report is doing just that (although I won't) and therefore reeks of anti-semitism.
Now of course there is genuine room for critism in every conflict, every country, every policy, however, when the Jews are held to one standard with their country and the rest of the world is held to another... one can quesiton, why is that? |
Come on! Anti-Semtitic claims against the EU are just an attempt to deflect genuine criticism of Israel. People think what Hitler did over 60 years ago somehow justifies this position when in my opinion, these Israelis/Americans who scream anti-Semitism at the EU are in fact the prejudiced ones.
And notice how it's the ones accusing of anti-Semitism who use the term "the Jews" (see above). Do you hear any EU officials use that term? Or do they refer to "Israel"?
I'll be the first one to agree that Israel/Palestine receives far much more attention than a lot of worse examples of oppression but I don't think that's down to anti-Semitism it's down to the significance of this particular conflict. The plight of the Palestinians might not be as bad as the plight of other unfortunates, but as far as the global effect is concerned, Israel/Palestine is easily the most significant conflict... |
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| ronk |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
So what you're saying is Israel attacked first and the article distorted history by suggesting otherwise. Good, glad we cleared that up |
yes Israel attacked first, but didn't make the first move of that war. as I clearly posted previously, Egypt (and Syria and Jordan) did.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
And the relevance of that is? |
that they shouldn't cry over their "stolen" land, which was Egypt's and Jordan's lands.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
What are the root causes? |
they cry over a land that isn't really theirs?
I mean, there isn't such thing as "palestinians". when country A conquers some of country B lands after a war, those country B civilians can't demand independence. especially when peace agreements have been signed between both countries. "palestinians" came from, like, nowhere.
and besides, you can't blow yourself up along with civilians no matter what, and you can't justify such action.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
I get the impression you have a deep hatred of Europe, and are attempting to demonise it... |
where the hell did you get that impression from? :conf:
by the way - George, I think you're a racist.
why you might ask? because I get the impression that you have a deep hatred of Jews, and you try to demonise them. :wtf: |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by ronk
yes Israel attacked first |
Thank you
| quote: | | that they shouldn't cry over their "stolen" land, which was Egypt's and Jordan's lands. |
They were living there
| quote: | they cry over a land that isn't really theirs?
I mean, there isn't such thing as "palestinians". when country A conquers some of country B lands after a war, those country B civilians can't demand independence. especially when peace agreements have been signed between both countries. "palestinians" came from, like, nowhere. |
Are you for real?
| quote: | | and besides, you can't blow yourself up along with civilians no matter what, and you can't justify such action. |
No you can't
| quote: | | where the hell did you get that impression from? :conf: |
You're trying to portray Europeans as anti-Semitic Nazis. Now I don't know about you, but I find that deeply offending, and competely untrue (not that there aren't anti-Semitic, racist Nazis in Europe of course, but to suggest that that describes EU officials is absurd)
| quote: | | by the way - George, I think you're a racist. |
No you don't |
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| George Smiley |
As for the actual quotes in the article (which is all we have as none of us have actually seen this report) lets take them in order...
| quote: | | A leaked European Union secret report advises European government officials that they should "consider direct intervention in an attempt to curb the systematic measures being undertaken by Israel to increase its control and population in the historically -- and legally -- Arab eastern sector of Jerusalem" |
They should do this, what's the problem?
| quote: | | The chances of a two-state solution are being eroded by Israel's "deliberate policy" -- in breach of international of law -- of "completing the annexation of East Jerusalem" |
It is. Fact
| quote: | | Rapid expansion of Jewish settlements in and around East Jerusalem, along with use of the separation barrier to isolate East Jerusalem from the West Bank, "risk radicalizing the relatively quiescent Palestinian population of East Jerusalem." |
It does. Fact
| quote: | | The EU report also distorts the history of Jewish control of East Jerusalem. The report writers claim that the Israelis "seized" it during the Six Days War of 1967 |
Israel did. Fact
| quote: | | The report's recommendations includes meeting with the elected-leaders of the Palestinians, such as President Mahmoud Abbas, to show support for their endeavors to create their own independent nation. |
They should do this, what's the problem?
| quote: | | "Israel's activities in Jerusalem are in violation of both its Roadmap obligations and international law. We and others in the international community have made our concerns clear on numerous occasions with varying effect. Palestinians are, without exception, deeply alarmed about East Jerusalem. They fear that Israel will 'get away with it' under cover of disengagement [from Gaza]." |
Stating a fact again
You see, stripping away all the bull from the writer, we see merely a string of facts and good advice for helping to acheive Europe's (and America's and Israel's) aim of creating a viable Palestinian state. The problem is, when discussing Israel/Palestine, is that everyone wants to include every single event in history when the other side has done something bad. Now the writer never even mentions what the purpose of this report actually is (which is the only clue we need to know this journalist has his agenda). Simply looking at the quotes from the article, it appears it's advice on how to quell further radicalistation of the Palestinian population (hmmm...I wonder why that could be?) and thereby moving closer to everyone's aim of creating a Palestinian state. Is that anti-Semtic (or even distorting history when the report isn't actually supposed to be an essay on histroy???) |
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| ronk |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
They were living there |
so ing what? they were part of Egypt/Jordan.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Are you for real? |
| quote: | From the Armistice Agreements of Israel after the 1948 Arab-Israeli war:
The armistice line was drawn along the international border (dating back to 1906) for the most part, except near the Mediterranean Sea, where Egypt remained in control of a strip of land along the coast, which became known as the Gaza Strip.
Jordanian forces remained in most positions held by them in the West Bank, particularly East Jerusalem which included the Old City. Jordan withdrew its forces from their front posts overlooking the Plain of Sharon. In return, Israel agreed to allow Jordanian forces to take over positions in the West Bank previously held by Iraqi forces. |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
You're trying to portray Europeans as anti-Semitic Nazis. |
no I don't. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by ronk
so ing what? they were part of Egypt/Jordan. |
So give the land back to Egypt and Jordan then...
But why would you lie and claim Europe was distorting the history of Israel? Why would they deliberately do that? |
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| ronk |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
So give the land back to Egypt and Jordan then... |
apparently they don't want it. and besides, Israel already has peace with them, so I don't think there will be any lands exchange in the future.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
But why would you lie and claim Europe was distorting the history of Israel? Why would they deliberately do that? |
if I wasn't clear enough, then here it is: I never said Europe distorted the history, I said the report writers did, deliberately or not. I don't hate Europe. I just don't like people who hate me and Israel. criticizing is welcomed, as long as it's done right - i.e. considering all facts, history, reasons for this to do that, etc. |
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