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Leaked EU Secret Report Smacks Of Anti-Semitism (pg. 5)
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by ronk
as for eastern Jerusalem, well it's currently under Israeli control, and it's Israel's capital so I really don't see why palestinians should have it. but if you go by the "holiness" of the place - it's the most important site in Judaism (the Temple Mount, the Western Wall, Solomon's stables etc). |
It's occupied by Israel, it is not part of the sovereign Israeli state. Also if we wanna talk about "holiness" then I'm gonna be pedantic and say the Christians should have it as the Jews rejected Christ and therefore lost all their religious claims to the Holy Lands... |
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| ronk |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
It's occupied by Israel, it is not part of the sovereign Israeli state. |
oh yes it is. it is Israel's capital.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Also if we wanna talk about "holiness" then I'm gonna be pedantic and say the Christians should have it as the Jews rejected Christ and therefore lost all their religious claims to the Holy Lands... |
wtf?
| quote: | | ...[East Jerusalem] is the holiest site in Judaism. |
out of wikipedia. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by ronk
oh yes it is. it is Israel's capital. |
According to you maybe...
| quote: | Jerusalem was supposed to be a 'corpus separatum', or international city administered by the UN. But this was never set up: immediately after the UNGA resolution partitioning Palestine, Israel occupied West Jerusalem and Jordan occupied East Jerusalem (including the Old City). We recognised the de facto control of Israel and Jordan, but not sovereignty. In 1967, Israel occupied East Jerusalem, which the international community continues to consider is under illegal military occupation by Israel. Our Embassy to Israel is in Tel Aviv, not Jerusalem. In East Jerusalem we have a Consulate-General, with a Consul-General who is not accredited to any state: this is an expression of our view that no state has sovereignty over Jerusalem.
The UK position was formally expressed in April 1950, when HMG extended simultaneous de jure recognition to both Jordan and Israel. However, the statement withheld recognition of the sovereignty of either Jordan or Israel over the sectors of the city which each then held, within the area of the corpus separatum as stipulated in UN General Assembly Resolution 303 (IV) of 1949. In the British view, no such recognition was possible before a final determination of the status of this area, although HMG did recognise that both Jordan and Israel exercised 'de facto authority' over those parts of the city and area which each held.
After the 1967 war, with Israel occupying all of Jerusalem, the Israeli Government immediately extended its civil law to the whole city, simultaneously greatly enlarging the municipal boundaries into the West Bank. This purported annexation of East Jerusalem was reaffirmed in 1980 when Israel enacted its 'Jerusalem Law', formally declaring East and West Jerusalem together, 'whole and united', to be 'the capital of Israel'.
The UK rejects these Israeli measures to change the status of Jerusalem. The UN Security Council unanimously adopted Resolution 478 of 1980 in response to the Israeli annexation, declaring it to be a violation of international law; the British Government has reiterated and amplified this position many times since.
HMG's formal position is based on the 1950 statement: it recognises that Israel exercises de facto authority in West Jerusalem and, from 1950 to 1967, recognised that Jordan exercised de facto authority in East Jerusalem. Since the war of 1967, HMG has regarded Israel as being in occupation of East Jerusalem, and in this connection subject to the rules of law applicable to such an occupation, in particular the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949. HMG also holds that the provisions of Security Council Resolution 242 on the withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the 1967 war applies to East Jerusalem. The Venice Declaration and subsequent statements (both by the UK alone and with EU partners) have made clear that no unilateral attempts to change the status of Jerusalem are valid.
The UK believes that the city's status has yet to be determined, and maintains that it should be settled in an overall agreement between the parties concerned. The Declaration of Principles and the Interim Agreement, signed by Israel and the PLO on 13 September 1993 and 28 September 1995 respectively, left the issue of the status of Jerusalem to be decided in the 'permanent status' negotiations between the two parties.
http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1007029394365&a=KCountryProfile&aid=1031532656768 |
| quote: | wtf?
out of wikipedia. |
I am well aware that Jerusalem is the holiest site for Jewish people. My point is, if we want to use religion as a factor to decide who gets Jerusalem then, according to the Bible, God wanted us all to follow Jesus. The Jews became Christians according to God's will. Therefore, the Christians are the true inheritors of the Jew's heritage (according to God like) The Jews rejected Christ therefore, according to the Bible they are no longer God's chosen people...
Of course, that is the biggest pile of I have written in my life, as is any claim to anything based on fairy tales that were written 1000s of years ago... |
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| ronk |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
According to you maybe... |
and according to Israel as well.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
I am well aware that Jerusalem is the holiest site for Jewish people. My point is, if we want to use religion as a factor to decide who gets Jerusalem then, according to the Bible, God wanted us all to follow Jesus. The Jews became Christians according to God's will. Therefore, the Christians are the true inheritors of the Jew's heritage (according to God like) The Jews rejected Christ therefore, according to the Bible they are no longer God's chosen people... |
I still don't know what are you talking about. there isn't a Christian country that wants Jerusalem as a capital, so what's the relevance of your point? |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by ronk
and according to Israel as well. |
Yes that's what I meant. I don't even think America recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital, and if they do, they're the only country in the world (afaik) that do recognise it as such. So I'm afraid you're out voted - it's not technically your capital (certainly not East Jerusalem anyway)
| quote: | | I still don't know what are you talking about. there isn't a Christian country that wants Jerusalem as a capital, so what's the relevance of your point? |
My point is that basing ANYTHING political on religion is stupid beyond belief. |
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| CHRles |
Jerusalem is DEFINITELY Israel's capital. It's part of the state of Israel, religion or no religion.
The only reason a lot of countries don't officially recognize Jerusalem properly has to do with politics.
Case in point: Taiwan. Soverign state yet China claims Taiwan is a part of it.
In 1979 the US closed its embassy in Taipei when relations with Beijing tightened. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by CHRles
Jerusalem is DEFINITELY Israel's capital. It's part of the state of Israel, religion or no religion.
The only reason a lot of countries don't officially recognize Jerusalem properly has to do with politics.
Case in point: Taiwan. Soverign state yet China claims Taiwan is a part of it.
In 1979 the US closed its embassy in Taipei when relations with Beijing tightened. |
Taiwan is not a sovereign state
And when you say countries do not recognise Israel's claim to Jerusalem because of "politics" what exactly do you mean? |
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| CHRles |
George, you know exactly what I mean cough*oil politics*cough ;)
And why do you say Taiwan isn't a soverign country? In 1949 it broke free from China during the Communist revolution, didn't it? |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by CHRles
George, you know exactly what I mean cough*oil politics*cough ;)
And why do you say Taiwan isn't a soverign country? In 1949 it broke free from China during the Communist revolution, didn't it? |
| quote: | The People's Republic of China claims sovereignty over Taiwan and regards Taiwan as a province of China. The United Kingdom acknowledges the position of the Chinese Government that Taiwan is a province of China and recognises the Chinese Government as the sole legal government of China. The United Kingdom does not recognise Taiwan as a state and does not have diplomatic relations with Taiwan. The United Kingdom considers the Taiwan issue is one to be settled by the people on both sides of the Taiwan Straits. We are strongly opposed to any use of force and urge both sides to engage in constructive dialogue.
Foreign and Commonwealth Office |
This is the official position of every country apart from Belize, Burkina Faso, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Gambia, Guatemala, Haiti, Vatican City, Honduras, Kiribati, Malawi, Marshall Islands, Nauru, Nicaragua, Palau, Panama, Paraguay, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Sao Tome and Principe, Swaziland, Solomon Islands and Tuvalu. Because China will not have relations with any country that disputes their claim to the Island. |
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| CHRles |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Because China will not have relations with any country that disputes their claim to the Island. |
By that same token, can you not fathom a scenario where the Arab league has pressured most of the world not to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel? |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by CHRles
By that same token, can you not fathom a scenario where the Arab league has pressured most of the world not to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel? |
It's a valid point but completely ignores the fact that East Jerusalem is Arab and maybe the rest of the world agrees that it should remain in the hands of the people that have lived there for 100s of years
It would be a more valid comparison if the international community recognised Taiwan's claim to China... |
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| CHRles |
Well Jaffa, a city which is actually part of Tel Aviv, is mostly Arab as well, but it's part of Israel. So just b/c the majority of the people living in a part of a Jerusalem are Arabs doesn't mean the city as a whole isn't part of Israel.
Will there ever come a day when Israel would hand over full control of East Jerusalem to another government? Maybe, but only if it's a government it trusts. Otherwise Israel would be afraid that members of Hizbollah and other organizations would be allowed to operate from East Jerusalem, just like Lebanon has (reluctantly) allowed the Hizbollah to militantly operate out of southern Lebanon. |
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