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Dutch seek ban on burqas in public (pg. 4)
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| Purple |
Malek the pic you posted is called a 'liwaz' (full dress), and burqa only refers to cloth that covers face.. more like a head scarf which nuns wear..
Isnt Dutch govt is banning muslim girls from wearing head scrafs in school?
and if you think Burqa is not common and only weared in Afgha.. than come to Delhi; I will take you to 'Old Delhi' area.. you will see 500+ women wearring burqa in first 10 minutes there.. |
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| Purple |
| quote: | Originally posted by Groundhog Boy
Who said it? |
I asked one girl, and she replied that.. I donno what it means so asked you.. thought your english is better; but looks like its more terrible than me. |
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| malek |
| quote: | Originally posted by Purple
Malek the pic you posted is called a 'liwaz' (full dress), and burqa only refers to cloth that covers face.. more like a head scarf which nuns wear..
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hahahahahahah wtf are you smoking. |
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| Groundhog Boy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Purple
I asked one girl, and she replied that.. I donno what it means so asked you.. thought your english is better; but looks like its more terrible than me. |
Maybe hers isn't so good, or you just left out a few words when repeating it. |
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| CHRles |
You guys are missing the point here BADLY. The Dutch have had it with Muslim extremists and they're trying to drive them out of their country. They have no problem with moderate Moslims.
The Dutch are liberal and the most non religious country in the world. All of a sudden you've got people coming into this country who threaten their way of life, and who the Dutch feel they have to accomodate to instead of it being vice versa.
If it were actual Dutch people who were born in Holland, who had a long Dutch ancestry, and who had a growing religious movement, it would be different. But the opposite is true - The Dutch are becoming less and less religious.
This leads to a paradox where one of the most open minded, liberal, and tolerant societies on the planet has to enforce a law that singles out individuals. If it's come to this then there really is a problem in Holland with extremist Moslims. The Dutch are afraid for their way of life and they're reacting. The Dutch remember that not too long ago one of their artists was assasinated for speaking his mind. The Dutch remember and saw what happened this past summer over in Demmark with the cartoons. The Dutch remember and they've had it with these ignorant people. They're starting to fight fire with fire, and I say it's about damn time.
You want to be a Moslim in Holland? Fine, but don't forget where you are, who you are, and what the norms are in Holland. |
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| CHRles |
| quote: | Originally posted by malek
women wearing the burqas are oppressed women, forced to submit to their husbands, get little or no education and live a life of non-existence.
Burqas force a woman to isolation by not letting her integrating society, make friends, go to work, participate in the neighbourhood, etc.
*Its not only about a piece of cloth*, I thought you guys _knew_ that :rolleyes: |
+ ing 1!!!!
The Dutch frown upon the way radical Moslims treat women. They don't want these people in their country. |
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| Alex |
| quote: | Originally posted by CHRles
You guys are missing the point here BADLY. The Dutch have had it with Muslim extremists and they're trying to drive them out of their country. They have no problem with moderate Moslims.
The Dutch are liberal and the most non religious country in the world. All of a sudden you've got people coming into this country who threaten their way of life, and who the Dutch feel they have to accomodate to instead of it being vice versa.
If it were actually Dutch people who were born Holland, who had a long Dutch ancestry, and who had a growing religious movement, it would be different. But the opposite is true - Holland is becoming less and less religious.
This leads to a paradox where one of the most open minded, liberal, and tolerant societies on the planet has to enforce a law that singles out individuals. If it's come to this then there really is a problem in Holland with extremist Moslims. The Dutch are afraid for their way of life and they're reacting. The Dutch remember that not too long ago one of their artists was assasinated for speaking his mind. The Dutch remember and saw what happened this past summer over in Demmark with the cartoons. The Dutch remember and they've had it with these ignorant people. They're starting to fight fire with fire, and I say it's about damn time.
You want to be a Moslim in Holland? Fine, but don't forget where you are, who you are, and what the norms are in Holland. |
Thank you.
I agree completely and hope everyone else considers your point of view. |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by CHRles
You guys are missing the point here BADLY. The Dutch have had it with Muslim extremists and they're trying to drive them out of their country. They have no problem with moderate Moslims.
The Dutch are liberal and the most non religious country in the world. All of a sudden you've got people coming into this country who threaten their way of life, and who the Dutch feel they have to accomodate to instead of it being vice versa.
If it were actual Dutch people who were born in Holland, who had a long Dutch ancestry, and who had a growing religious movement, it would be different. But the opposite is true - The Dutch are becoming less and less religious.
This leads to a paradox where one of the most open minded, liberal, and tolerant societies on the planet has to enforce a law that singles out individuals. If it's come to this then there really is a problem in Holland with extremist Moslims. The Dutch are afraid for their way of life and they're reacting. The Dutch remember that not too long ago one of their artists was assasinated for speaking his mind. The Dutch remember and saw what happened this past summer over in Demmark with the cartoons. The Dutch remember and they've had it with these ignorant people. They're starting to fight fire with fire, and I say it's about damn time.
You want to be a Moslim in Holland? Fine, but don't forget where you are, who you are, and what the norms are in Holland. |
As someone pointed out earlier, the chances that this will help fighting extremism are minor, it will probably just polarize society and further give a push for extremism. So in my opinion it will clearly have the opposite of the intended effect.
A Burqa is for many the perfect symbol for oppression and extremism in western countries, so it is also the perfect target for populist politicians who want to win an election! (but will have a bad effect on society, and most importantly it will also be a big setback for the very liberal and tolerant society that they are supposedly defending.) |
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| AirPole |
| quote: | Originally posted by CHRles
You guys are missing the point here BADLY. The Dutch have had it with Muslim extremists and they're trying to drive them out of their country. They have no problem with moderate Moslims.
The Dutch are liberal and the most non religious country in the world. All of a sudden you've got people coming into this country who threaten their way of life, and who the Dutch feel they have to accomodate to instead of it being vice versa.
If it were actual Dutch people who were born in Holland, who had a long Dutch ancestry, and who had a growing religious movement, it would be different. But the opposite is true - The Dutch are becoming less and less religious.
This leads to a paradox where one of the most open minded, liberal, and tolerant societies on the planet has to enforce a law that singles out individuals. If it's come to this then there really is a problem in Holland with extremist Moslims. The Dutch are afraid for their way of life and they're reacting. The Dutch remember that not too long ago one of their artists was assasinated for speaking his mind. The Dutch remember and saw what happened this past summer over in Demmark with the cartoons. The Dutch remember and they've had it with these ignorant people. They're starting to fight fire with fire, and I say it's about damn time.
You want to be a Moslim in Holland? Fine, but don't forget where you are, who you are, and what the norms are in Holland. |
I have to agree here. I think our country has always been very tolerant towards immigrants. This law is NOT about an attempt to annoy or frustrate Muslims. If people where burqa's in public they are hard to identify. That's not preferable. Most of the people don't even know what's going on in our country right now.
I'm not saying that Muslims are bad people, but we are having a hard time here now dealing with Muslim extremists. For instance: the same guy who killed Theo van Gogh, has been accused of planning terror attacks in Holland, over and over again, together with a number of people. This guy feels so much hate for us, but what the hell did we ever do to him or Muslims in general? Ok, so our country is also militarily present in Iraq, but can I help that? I was against the sending of our troops. He thinks that he is legite because our government decided to send troops, but is that fair? Can the Dutch help that?
Furthermore, the gap between Muslims and Dutch people is already big enough. It's time we put our differences aside and stop looking at each other from a religious kind of perspective. Integration has to start now or our country will be facing much more heavier problems in the near future. Banning the burqa is not a bad idea, IMHO. Don't get us wrong. People here are allowed to express themselves. Many Muslims here even wear those headscarfs, but our government thinks the burqa just goes a bit too far. Woman + Burqa's don't equal Integration. Indeed it's not about the piece of cloth itself, there's so much more behind it.
Last point: In Turkey in 1924, it was made illegal to wear headscarfs in community buildings, by constitution. Then why is it so wrong if our government decides that it should be forbidden to wear a burqa in public??? |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by AirPole
I have to agree here. I think our country has always been very tolerant towards immigrants. This law is NOT about an attempt to annoy or frustrate Muslims. If people where burqa's in public they are hard to identify. That's not preferable. Most of the people don't even know what's going on in our country right now.
I'm not saying that Muslims are bad people, but we are having a hard time here now dealing with Muslim extremists. For instance: the same guy who killed Theo van Gogh, has been accused of planning terror attacks in Holland, over and over again, together with a number of people. This guy feels so much hate for us, but what the hell did we ever do to him or Muslims in general? Ok, so our country is also militarily present in Iraq, but can I help that? I was against the sending of our troops. He thinks that he is legite because our government decided to send troops, but is that fair? Can the Dutch help that?
Furthermore, the gap between Muslims and Dutch people is already big enough. It's time we put our differences aside and stop looking at each other from a religious kind of perspective. Integration has to start now or our country will be facing much more heavier problems in the near future. Banning the burqa is not a bad idea, IMHO. Don't get us wrong. People here are allowed to express themselves. Many Muslims here even wear those headscarfs, but our government thinks the burqa just goes a bit too far. |
How exactly do you think that banning burqas - something that only a handful of people in Holland uses - will help in fighting extremism? Many women with Burqas trying to blow up things in the Netherlands? Or kill people? Or preach extremism? Clearly it will only be seen as a blow in the face to the Muslims - and extremism will increase.
| quote: | | Last point: In Turkey in 1924, it was made illegal to wear headscarfs in community buildings, by constitution. Then why is it so wrong if our government decides that it should be forbidden to wear a burqa in public??? |
I guess you also support their oppressing laws when it comes to freedom of speech too then? Really, do you think Turkey is a good example of a free country? |
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| AirPole |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
How exactly do you think that banning burqas - something that only a handful of people in Holland uses - will help in fighting extremism? Many women with Burqas trying to blow up things in the Netherlands? Or kill people? Or preach extremism? Clearly it will only be seen as a blow in the face to the Muslims - and extremism will increase. |
Well, I'm not necessarily saying that banning the burqa will eventually help in fighting extremism. All I'm saying is that the burqa is a big stand in the way for the integration process, that we need so badly here at the moment. You can NOT disagree with me when I say that things like the burqa only ALIENATE the relation between the Muslim people and the Dutch people. Don't underestimate the burqa in it's sociological power. To you the burqa is just ONE thing. Here in Holland there are so many things which frustrate the integration process. Muslim people here want their own churches, their own schools, their own butcher stores, etc. etc. THIS DOESN'T AID us in coming closer to each other. What is the purpose of a multi cultural society when every ethnic group stays stuck in their own 'world'???
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
I guess you also support their oppressing laws when it comes to freedom of speech too then? Really, do you think Turkey is a good example of a free country? |
Nope, it may not be a good example, but why does everyone think our government is crazy for prohibiting the burqa, when even in Muslim countries it's not allowed to wear a burqa in public?? |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by AirPole
Well, I'm not necessarily saying that banning the burqa will eventually help in fighting extremism. All I'm saying is that the burqa is a big stand in the way for the integration process, that we need so badly here at the moment. |
It is hardly a big stand in the way, since extremely few people uses it. The 99,999999% of the Muslims that don't use it though will feel pointed out by this legislation and it will further alienate those and make integration harder.
| quote: | | You can NOT disagree with me when I say that things like the burqa only ALIENATE the relation between the Muslim people and the Dutch people. Don't underestimate the burqa in it's sociological power. |
For the extremely few who uses the Burqa integration might be harder (since it's harder to get a job etc), but to the vast majority of Muslims it does not matter if a few of them uses it (ie a Muslim that doesn't use a Burqa is not harder to integrate because other Muslims use Burqas). On the other hand, such a ban might push those previously moderate ones towards extremism because they feel they are under threat by the Dutch state because of being Muslims!
Plus, the few who use the Burqa will not suddenly just go out and live a normal life because of the ban, they will probably just go further into isolation and extremism - in their private homes.
| quote: | | To you the burqa is just ONE thing. Here in Holland there are so many things which frustrate the integration process. Muslim people here want their own churches, their own schools, their own butcher stores, etc. etc. THIS DOESN'T AID us in coming closer to each other. What is the purpose of a multi cultural society when every ethnic group stays stuck in their own 'world'??? |
I thought multi cultural meant exactly what it says, a society with many cultures. Banning a selected few of them also means that you put an effective stop for the multi cultural society. So it's not the Muslims' practice of their own religion/culture that is the threat, but rather laws like this.
Of course you don't have to believe in a multicultural society.
| quote: | | Nope, it may not be a good example, but why does everyone think our government is crazy for prohibiting the burqa, when even in Muslim countries it's not allowed to wear a burqa in public?? |
Who said I don't think the governments of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Turkey and others are crazy? Clearly they all are, but somehow i expect more of a country like the Netherlands, but maybe I'm wrong? |
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